Evil

JacksLadder · Jul 4, 2009

If God is so great why evil?

If God allows evil then why is he great?

If God did not make Evil then who was able to create something God did not?

ProScribe · Jul 4, 2009

Go ask a philosopher . . .

icxn · Jul 4, 2009

Who is greater a father who beats his child down every time he makes a mistake or one who is forgiving and waits for his repentance?

Also, evil is not a thing but misuse of the gift of free will - something that only angels and humans were given, btw.

JacksLadder · Jul 4, 2009

icxn said:
Who is greater a father who beats his child down every time he makes a mistake or one who is forgiving and waits for his repentance?

Also, evil is not a thing but misuse of the gift of free will - something that only angels and humans were given, btw.

But would a Father let his child walk off of a cliff into a lake of fire to be burnt to death?

Norbert L · Jul 4, 2009

ProScribe said:
Go ask a philosopher . . .

Or in another forum and throw in the KJV translation of Is 45:7, "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

Empt · Jul 4, 2009

so you will have choice in your life

MariaRegina · Jul 4, 2009

JacksLadder said:
But would a Father let his child walk off of a cliff into a lake of fire to be burnt to death?

A father cannot prevent such things all the time.

If a child wants to walk of a cliff, then he will do so in spite of the father's pleading and preventative measures.

We are given the gift of free will and the freedom that entails, but freedom is a responsibility.

God does give us the grace to avoid sin and harm, but many times we are not aware of His Presence. I cannot tell you how many times I have felt an intuitive nudge to look to my left or right or my rear view mirror when driving only to find that I had to take evasive action immediately. I honestly feel that those insights are from the Holy Spirit because I also felt a peace and calm descend upon me.

PT Calvinist · Jul 4, 2009

Evil cannot be created.........!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.......!!!!

Sorry...I'm upset because alot of people are ignorant of the fact that evil is a relationship and that it can't be created.

icxn · Jul 4, 2009

JacksLadder said:
But would a Father let his child walk off of a cliff into a lake of fire to be burnt to death?

What death? Christ put "him" to death . Next objection...

As for the guy who quoted the OT. The evil spoken of in that context refers to natural disasters and the like, i.e. evils from a human perspective albeit not from a divine point of view. Sin is the only evil in as much as it separates one from God and internal life. Btw, to suffer evil in the former sense is not evil since it is the source of rewards (see Job). To inflict evil of course is evil.

JacksLadder · Jul 4, 2009

icxn said:
What death? Christ put "him" to death . Next objection...

As for the guy who quoted the OT. The evil spoken of in that context refers to natural disasters and the like, i.e. evils from a human perspective albeit not from a divine point of view. Sin is the only evil in as much as it separates one from God and internal life. Btw, to suffer evil in the former sense is not evil since it is the source of rewards (see Job). To inflict evil of course is evil.

I mean the like of fire for all eternity death. That one is done by God himself.

MariaRegina · Jul 4, 2009

JacksLadder said:
I mean the like of fire for all eternity death. That one is done by God himself.

"Don't know much about history"
Don't know much about theology.
Don't know much about the afterlife.

But this I can tell you, God does give us every chance to repent. Those who go to hell will have been given every chance. In the end, it will be their own desire to separate themselves from Christ. It is unfortunate, but that is our gift of free will: To choose eternal life or eternal death.

Blackknight · Jul 4, 2009

JacksLadder said:
I mean the like of fire for all eternity death. That one is done by God himself.

I don't think we see Hell the same way as the western world sees it. I see it as a place of darkness where the glory of God feels like a fire to those that have chosen to reject Him.

That old quote by Epicurus is interesting but the more I've studied theology the more I disagree with it.

Evil is the result of sin which is caused by human free will. Now why God allows people to suffer because of the actions of others I don't know, it's a question I've been struggling with myself.

Protoevangel · Jul 4, 2009

JacksLadder said:
I mean the like of fire for all eternity death. That one is done by God himself.

Everyone has the chance in this life and perhaps in the next.

For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
- 1 Peter 3:18-20

Christ will save EVERYONE who will allow him to do so, but he will not force Himself on anyone.

Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.
- Romans 5:18

The free gift IS THERE FOR ALL. Anyone who does not take hold of it and make it their own has only themselves to blame.

So instead of worrying about the lake of fire, let us pray for the salvation of all.

I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone—for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
- 1 Timothy 2:1-4

Greg the byzantine · Jul 4, 2009

Boethius deals with the question of evil in his Consolation of Philosophy. IMHO it's a really good argument that basically ends up stating that Evil doesn't really exist.

ArmyMatt · Jul 4, 2009

if God creates man free to either chose to follow or reject him, and God will not override man's free will nor will He annihilate him, then what does God do with those who eternally refuse to repent? He will not put them in heaven, because there is no corruption in heaven, so what does He do with them? He offers them a second option: hell.

now that being said, for the Orthodox, hell is not some molten lava pit where demons stab sinners with pitchforks, and despite their pleas for God to save them He refuses. the very same love of God that is bliss to the saint, is condemnation to the sinner. think about it this way. if you reject the God who is love, light, peace, joy, purity, rest, etc, then you are left with lust, darkness, chaos, hate, corruption, fatigue, etc.

CS Lewis put it best when he said that the gates of hell are locked from the inside.

CopticGirl · Jul 4, 2009

CS Lewis also has a good book called The Problem of Pain. It discusses mans struggle with the concept of suffering and evil in this world.

In his book he gives a great example of how if God removed a source of pain or suffering from one person, it may indirectly cause suffering for another person. The example he gives, is say someone takes a stick and hits someone on the head with it. Well, looks like based on human logic God should remove the stick from existence so there is no suffering. .....but wait a second, that stick is made of wood, and dose wood not have many usefull qualities? Would not some people suffer if wood did not exist? A simple example, but I think the point is clear. What causes suffering for one person may be a help or source of relief to another. And its not the wood that is ultimately evil, yet it is a human using God's good creation for evil purposes.

Furthermore, as one of my priests always says, God does not cause evil, however he does allow "bad" things to happen, but will ultimately make something good come of it in the end. ....it goes back to all those silly cliche and sayings such as, "every could has a silver lining". And time and time again I find this to be true. In almost any "bad" thing that have happened in my life, I can still see some good that has come of it--and like anyone in this world, I could give you examples of death, disease...you name it, I've got a big family and we've been through a lot over the years! BUT there is always something good that we can find in the end.

JacksLadder · Jul 4, 2009

Blackknight said:
I don't think we see Hell the same way as the western world sees it. I see it as a place of darkness where the glory of God feels like a fire to those that have chosen to reject Him.

That old quote by Epicurus is interesting but the more I've studied theology the more I disagree with it.

Evil is the result of sin which is caused by human free will. Now why God allows people to suffer because of the actions of others I don't know, it's a question I've been struggling with myself.

Yes I have been reading some Epicurus lately. His writings helped get me through a stomach/gall bladder surgery a couple of years back with no fear going into the operating room.
Unfortunately they do not jive well with my current endevor into Orthodoxy. I have tried reading Ecclesiastes to replace my Epicurean thoughts but it is rough going. I am filled with tons of fear these days.

My wife asked me the other day "So since you are doing the Christian thing again do you believe me and the baby are going to hell?" I mean what could I say to that So then I just got mad at God for the 50th or so time this week. The whole hell thing scares me to death anyways, almost as much as eternal life dose(thats a whole other post).

MariaRegina · Jul 4, 2009

JacksLadder said:
Yes I have been reading some Epicurus lately. His writings helped get me through a stomach/gall bladder surgery a couple of years back with no fear going into the operating room.
Unfortunately they do not jive well with my current endevor into Orthodoxy. I have tried reading Ecclesiastes to replace my Epicurean thoughts but it is rough going. I am filled with tons of fear these days.

My wife asked me the other day "So since you are doing the Christian thing again do you believe me and the baby are going to hell?" I mean what could I say to that So then I just got mad at God for the 50th or so time this week. The whole hell thing scares me to death anyways, almost as much as eternal life dose(thats a whole other post).

Try this:

Look her in the eyes with love.

Then say, Honey, we are taught that the faith, love and prayers of the believer will save their unbelieving spouse. So do not worry. I am praying for you because I love you. I want you and our baby to be in heaven, and God will answer my prayers. Trust me.

Better yet, ask your priest what to do.

Walks around singing, "You gotta have faith."

HandmaidenOfGod · Jul 5, 2009

JacksLadder said:
Yes I have been reading some Epicurus lately. His writings helped get me through a stomach/gall bladder surgery a couple of years back with no fear going into the operating room.
Unfortunately they do not jive well with my current endevor into Orthodoxy. I have tried reading Ecclesiastes to replace my Epicurean thoughts but it is rough going. I am filled with tons of fear these days.

My wife asked me the other day "So since you are doing the Christian thing again do you believe me and the baby are going to hell?" I mean what could I say to that So then I just got mad at God for the 50th or so time this week. The whole hell thing scares me to death anyways, almost as much as eternal life dose(thats a whole other post).

You can honestly say that since you don't know if you're going to hell, you're in no position to judge where she and your child will be. None of us know where we are going until we get there.

As MariaRegina pointed out, she is sanctified by your faith.

All you can do is pray for her, your baby, and yourself.

Leave the rest to God.

Rather than be angry at God for creating hell, rejoice that we have the choice to love Him freely rather than be robots and be forced to do what He wants.

sk8Joyful · Jul 6, 2009

JacksLadder said:
If God,
did not make evil then who was able to create something God did not?

Yes God,
created also Free-will, & allows it to choose:
1. the LOVE of LIFE-Abundant & eternally with God...
or
2. addiction to fud-destruction, & eternally without God.

JacksLadder said:
If God allows evil, then why is he great?

God/Jesus is great because He loves you!, enough to extravagantly... serve as your Creator, Father, Exemplar, Savior, Teacher, Best-friend, & Resurrector.
and
then God let's you cast your own deciding vote.

JacksLadder said:
If God is so great, why evil?

yeah, considering all that you'd lose, but more importantly all that you will yet gain, it's a supreme act of stupidity to choose h'll.
in fact,
God/Jesus has, is, & continues giving you, while you yet mortally live, plentiful opportunity
to Choose: LOVE of LIFE-Abundant, & eternally with God...
and
mind you, God/Jesus has the last word on this vote,
when in Matthew 11:28-30 He said: "My yoke is Easy: (love, light, peace, joy, purity, bliss & rest) & my burden is Light"

Choose ye well, this day Whom ye will serve. Why? because your eternity depends on it.

Evil

JacksLadder

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JacksLadder

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Servant of God

Smash the Patriarchy!

have mercy on me

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Christ is Risen! Indeed He is Risen!

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