Evil and Suffering

Freodin said:

Why would you do "stuff for the sake of others"? What "stuff" would you do?

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Simple speaking: I do good stuff for others out of gratitude for what Christ has done for me and I want to please Christ, but not to get something from Christ, because I have it all already.

There is the issue of knowing what would be best to do for others, the same issue a parent has with their children. It is not “best” just to give others money as an example, but be friending them and helping them find a job might be a better thing to do.

bling said:

Simple speaking: I do good stuff for others out of gratitude for what Christ has done for me and I want to please Christ, but not to get something from Christ, because I have it all already.

There is the issue of knowing what would be best to do for others, the same issue a parent has with their children. It is not “best” just to give others money as an example, but be friending them and helping them find a job might be a better thing to do.

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You might have misunderstood my question. I mean, as should have been clear from the previous exchange, in heaven.
Somehow I don't think you would try to help people find a job there, I guess?

I've already posted this with no comments. I don't know if this means there simply was no interest in this material or if I'm having problems posting in this thread.

The following are reasons God gives us in answer to why mankind suffers:

Scripture tells gives us reasons for our suffering, trials, tragedies, etc. They are:
Philippians 1:29:
For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe in him, but also to suffer for him

(we are refined/made perfect by suffering)

II Timothy 3:12-13:
In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, 13 while evildoers and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.

James 5:13-15:
13 Is anyone among you in trouble? Let them pray. Is anyone happy? Let them sing songs of praise. 14 Is anyone among you sick? Let them call the elders of the church to pray over them and anoint them with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise them up. If they have sinned, they will be forgiven.

Hebrews 12:5-7:
And have you completely forgotten this word of encouragement that addresses you as a father addresses his son? It says,
“My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline,
and do not lose heart when he rebukes you,
6 because the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son.”
7 Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as his children. For what children are not disciplined by their father?

James 1:2-3:
Consider it pure joy, my brothers and sisters, whenever you face trials of many kinds, 3 because you know that the testing of your faith produces perseverance.

I Peter 1:6-7:
In all this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. 7 These have come so that your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed.

Romans 5:3-4:
Not only so, but we also glory in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4 perseverance, character; and character, hope.

And as was said this is not our home. We look forward to our eternal home with Christ Who redeemed us. As also was already stated, we were lost to God through b/c of our sin which all people carry in their bodies and which we as Christians have an obligation to defeat, mostly by overcoming evil with good as Romans suggests. It is in heaven that the curse of sin is removed, not until then. More could be said, but I'll leave it here.

anonymous person said:

What significance does suffering have in your worldview?

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This is the significance that God says ought to happen through suffering, trials and difficulties:

God's significance in suffering for my Christian worldview is that it will test my faith, help me to grow to become a fully developed, mature Christian. I have two severe diseases and my Lord has helped me to grow spiritually, endure in the faith, and to defend the faith - through these trials.

My wife has a debilitating disease that may turn to lukaemia at any time. I've watched her become more godly and closer to Jesus over the last 25 years, since the symptoms developed. She lives on the edge of eternity with the Lord, but sufferings have been a blessing used by God for her.

Oz

A post from my blog may be of interest on the matter of God and suffering:

http://www.christianforums.com/xfa-blog-entry/god-and-suffering.10868/

AMR said:

A post from my blog may be of interest on the matter of God and suffering:

http://www.christianforums.com/xfa-blog-entry/god-and-suffering.10868/

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I love this blog. It is a great help.

Freodin said:

And we are back on square one. Back to my original questions, that you still didn't even attempt to answer.

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Sorry, don't even remember what your original question is now. Can you ask it again?

Freodin said:

Now you spelled it out: it took you over ten years of arguing to change.
How did these ten years go? Were these ten years filled with undeniable, scientific, testable facts? Hard evidence that should have convinced you from the start, but you were too hard-hearted, too settled in your sin to be shifted by these mountains of irrefutable logical arguments?

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Nope, it is mostly me aruguing with my Christian friends, at times moving away from them, a lot of times I thought I win because they can't even refute me. But I did meet some real knowledgeable ones, some in fileds of physics and one in biolog really shook me. I give you some of the examples.

Freodin said:

Then why don't you bring these, instead of the empty rethoric that you did?

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I did.

Freodin said:

Or were you also confronted by illogical reasonings, fallacies, pleas to faith, slights on your character, sophisms, quibbles about definitions... anything but something with convincing power?

Then why you - who should know how you felt when confronted with these - use the same nonsense?

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I already told you, we have believe A and believe B, none can be proved beyond reasonable doubt, I am simply expressing my points and presenting my evidences. Don't you think it is condescending to say the other guys points are nonsense when you can't prove it wrong?

Freodin said:

And square two (well, no, you came up with the 'prove to me that God doesn't exist' before the other. Square zero then.)

You ignored it before, and I know already that you will continue ignoring it: all this isn't evidence for the existence of God. Nothing of it.

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Given the e.coli example, Do you think it support Evolution? I told you I came from atheist point of view, so my journey is a journey of finding that what I believe before (i.e. Evolution) was not as strong as I thought. It is not a path that prove God exists, at least initially.

Freodin said:

Whatever convinced you, it wasn't evidence. It wasn't probability.

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May I ask why? Given our current knowledge and techonlogy, if we can't produce RNA in lab controled conditions, what are the chances nature can do it under uncontroled conditions, and let alone they can combine and form cells? If Evolution is true, why does e.coli in lab can't evolve to something distinct after 50k generations? should not they have some mutation that can caught our eye already? Was all those not evidence that worth even the slightest consideration?

Freodin said:

You might have misunderstood my question. I mean, as should have been clear from the previous exchange, in heaven.
Somehow I don't think you would try to help people find a job there, I guess?

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People (young, immature or mentally challenged) that have not had the opportunity to accept or reject God’s Love, would still go to heaven, but would not have obtained Godly type Love. Without Godly type love you could sin, so they will need special care/protection and I hope I could be one to care for them throughout eternity.

Freodin said:

I apologize that I will be so short with that text that you obviously put that much effort into... but a short response is all that is needed.

What you wrote there is a potential rationalization for the details of our human existence. Each and every point could be debated, but as before I'd say that goes beyond the scope of the question at hand.

But there is a bigger problem with your whole argument, again an old problem, raised many times and, I assert, still unanswered.

If we accept that for all the reasons you listed above, our existence in the way it is is necessary, you have effectively disproven the existence of "heaven", where nothing on your list is necessary... not even the "Love" that you claimed is the main reason for all that.

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Good. I like to give you a short response:
There are evil and pain on the earth, because God WANTS them to be there.

If you asked why. Then I will give you some other short responses.
If you don't ask, then I assume you are satisfied with this response. And that is good.

bling said:

People (young, immature or mentally challenged) that have not had the opportunity to accept or reject God’s Love, would still go to heaven, but would not have obtained Godly type Love. Without Godly type love you could sin, so they will need special care/protection and I hope I could be one to care for them throughout eternity.

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Friendly objection here: People in the Heaven WILL NOT sin. No overseeing is needed because it is not a possibility. (it is off the topic, so we could stop at here)

juvenissun said:

Friendly objection here: People in the Heaven WILL NOT sin. No overseeing is needed because it is not a possibility. (it is off the topic, so we could stop at here)

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Did the angels sin in heaven?

bling said:

Did the angels sin in heaven?

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They did. But they will not.
Nevertheless, certainly not human.

Brothers and sisters, to all those born of The Spirit and washed in The Blood, while we do bear the responsibility of giving reason for the hope that is within us with meekness and fear, let us also keep in mind that the one who declares the existence of suffering to be incompatible with the existence of our God bears the responsibility of giving reason for this declaration. Be not quick to alleviate such a one from their burden. To do so would not be expedient.

juvenissun said:

They did. But they will not.
Nevertheless, certainly not human.

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What makes it impossible?
What makes it impossible for God or Christ to sin?

bling said:

What makes it impossible?
What makes it impossible for God or Christ to sin?

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By definition.
Any one sinned is not God.

The only realm without suffering is the realm whether God dwells. That's why you are urged to make your way to heaven with all your efforts.

What do you expect of our realm where;

2 Corinthians 4:4 (KJV)
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

thatbrian said:

Second, though we don't know the reasons why he allows it to continue

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how about this is for a reason: without evil in this world we can not make moral choices?