Evil and good. A common argument attempted refuted

[TheReasoner]

I am a student of natural sciences, or more specifically nano-engineering. I am currently taking a course on philosophy to broaden my horizons, and I find the field interesting. As such I would like to air a brief analysis of a problem presented during today's lecture. One where I disagree with the professor, whom I find unnecessarily homo-/egocentric in this case.

Now, the argument I will very briefly bring forth is one presented at times to refute God's existence, at times to counter Plato's view on what's real, or his concept of perfect ideas of which what we can observe in our world are only reflections as it were.
It goes roughly as follows: "If everything in this world is merely a representation/reflection of a perfect true something in a perfect world is there then a perfect representation of evil as well as good?" Or more simply said: How can light exist without dark to contrast it?

First off the physicist in me says 'of course it can. You can have a heavily irradiated area which is practically drowned in photons (light) for an indefinite amount of time. Darkness, being only the absence of light, is thus not real. But only that which denotes an absence of light, which is. If one applies this to the attempt at derailing Plato's argument one can easily find that 'good' can be seen as what IS whereas evil is simply where good is not. This way we find that evil in itself does not exist and is not characterized by a perfect idea as good is, but rather to good what shadow is to light: A larger or smaller absence of good.

Could not the same be said of God, and cannot this argument be extended without much problem to contrast or even topple significant parts of the problem of evil?

What do you think?

 

[Dark_Lite]

Darkness is real. If I turn off the lights, it is dark. Just because it is created by the absence of something does not mean it is not real.

 

[TheReasoner]

Darkness is real. If I turn off the lights, it is dark. Just because it is created by the absence of something does not mean it is not real.

If it is real, surely it would be measurable? It is not. While darkness cannot exist without light, light can exist without darkness. Darkness may be real in the same sense that griffins are real; In our heads. They exist only in our definitions and hence is a homocentric definition. It would not exist without us to define it. As a separate entity independent of our definition it does not exist. Light on the other hand does. Can we then say darkness is real? Perhaps. As real as light? I think not.

 

[Tinker Grey]

Darkness as concept is real. But what is dark? It is not a thing. It is the absence of a thing. I have to agree with faith guardian on this.

Now WRT God/gods: that all depends on whether you accept Plato's premise. For one, it would seem to suggest that even gods are subject to ideas. For another, we have no empirical evidence that ideas aren't simply the human species' mechanism for successful survival -- that is, ideas exist only in the head that thinks them. They do not exist independently--at least there is no reason to think so.

I.e., I do not accept Plato's premise.

 

[truth_not_allowed]

I despise philosophical ramblings....... To all the previous "arguments"...... Who cares!

There is a much more poignant reality, if everything was always light without a single presence of darkness or vice versa..... How would one even begin to conceptualize the attributes of either one?

To argue we would be better off if Adam had never eaten from the tree of KNOWLEDGE of good and evil is ridiculous. What is the point of existence without the ability to conceptualize what existence is? You would lack any appreciation or knowledge of anything, thus becoming a meaningless lump of existence with the NONexistence of any cognizance whatsoever..... Sounds blissful?

This is very basic philosophy!

To suggest God included such a ridiculous sense of existence into the bible is to suggest God lacks any ability to reason.

 

[truth_not_allowed]

Within this mode of reason, there would be no concept, realization, acceptance, knowledge or reality of good without evil.

Suddenly God becomes subject to Satan, because without Satan there is zero knowledge of God by anything that is not itself God.

We would lack any knowledge or appreciation of God without Satan; thus by any reason, they are one and the same!

Similarly we would lack any knowledge or appreciation of self and the ability to love, also evident through the clinical aspect of superior reason.... WEIRD!; without the ability to deny the emotion as well as the reasoning behind it.

Conclusion...... It is all perfect in the focal realization of the emotion and/or the cognitive ability to reason.

Life is already perfect, the stories in the bible? Not so perfect! Actually an insult to reason.

 

[TomTomHatesCats]

faith guardian,

I think the analogy of light and dark to good and evil is an unfortunate one for two reasons, or 2.5.

First, light and dark can be measured quantitatively, as you implied, with photon detectors whereas good and evil are more elusive to such devices. I suppose we have built-in devices in our brains to detect the presence of good and evil but, of course, results will vary depending on the individual.

Second, in the case of light and dark, since particles of light exist and non-particles of dark do not, measuring light (and not dark) is not a choice made arbitrarily. It seems to me that using evil as an instance of where good "isn't" is no more preferable to using good as an instance of where evil "isn't." But, that seems to place your God under a less favorable light, doesn't it?

In addition, neither good nor evil seems to preclude the absence of the other. Surely, any single act can, however justifiably, be measured as good by one standard and evil by another.

Or have I entirely missed your point?

-Tom

 

[truth_not_allowed]

When you let go of the concepts of imperfection and evil, you are then able to see that it is all perfect...... It is simply yet to be realized for all, it begins here in your mind.

 

[truth_not_allowed]

Can you miss a point when there was really never a point to begin with?

Can anyone guess my favorite Led Zeppelin song?

 

[jpcedotal]

Where is C.S. Lewis when you need him. Yall are brushing against understanding, but are missing some obvious points.

A general ticket isle seat on a plane (Southwest Airlines). Which guy are you madder at? The guy who gets on right before you do and takes the last seat OR the guy who waits for you to go to the bathroom then takes your seat. The end result is the same (you have no seat) but why does one make you feel unfairly treated?

Can this be measured?

 

[truth_not_allowed]

youtube.com/watch?v=a3HemKGDavw

 

[truth_not_allowed]

Where is C.S. Lewis when you need him. Yall are brushing against understanding, but are missing some obvious points.

A general ticket isle seat on a plane (Southwest Airlines). Which guy are you madder at? The guy who gets on right before you do and takes the last seat OR the guy who waits for you to go to the bathroom then takes your seat. The end result is the same (you have no seat) but why does one make you feel unfairly treated?

Can this be measured?

Or perhaps you've missed the point entirely based upon an accepted value..... That perhaps none of us should be clamoring for seats.... That we should all be riding first class!

 

[truth_not_allowed]

Where's my champagne?

Perhaps we missed the message behind Jesus turning water into wine.

 

[Letalis]

If I understand you right, you are saying that evil is the absence of good, or God? You would necessarily be saying that there is an absence of God. But if we are to believe the attributes of God, namely that of omnipresence, there is no absence of God (omnipresence). In putting forth the notion of evil as an absence of good defeats the entire notion of god itself.

 

[jpcedotal]

Or perhaps you've missed the point entirely based upon an accepted value..... That perhaps none of us should be clamoring for seats.... That we should all be riding first class!

Accepted value? No, it is deeper than that. One affects you differently than the other....this is not some learned value or part of the "herd" mentality.

Darkness is the absence of Light.
Evil is the absence of Good.
Sin is the absence of God.

This is the argument correct?

 

[TomTomHatesCats]

Can you miss a point when there was really never a point to begin with?

No, I do think there was an explicit point he was trying to make, and not an ostensibly bad one.

Was he not trying to circumvent the problem of a God who allows evil to exist by jerry-rigging a way for evil to not exist at all? I don't think it worked, but, again, not bad.

-Tom

 

[jpcedotal]

If I understand you right, you are saying that evil is the absence of good, or God? You would necessarily be saying that there is an absence of God. But if we are to believe the attributes of God, namely that of omnipresence, there is no absence of God (omnipresence). In putting forth the notion of evil as an absence of good defeats the entire notion of god itself.

My actions can be "not of God".

My speech can omit God.

My heart can deny God.

Yes, God is everywhere, but I can choose to ignore Him and/or leave Him out of my life. In that sense, darkness can be recognized, not measured, by my actions. A measurement does not prove or disprove the existence of something...to me personally.

 

[truth_not_allowed]

My actions can be "not of God".

My speech can omit God.

My heart can deny God.

Yes, God is everywhere, but I can choose to ignore Him and/or leave Him out of my life. In that sense, darkness can be recognized, not measured, by my actions. A measurement does not prove or disprove the existence of something...to me personally.

We've extended far, far beyond this..... Perhaps you weren't paying attention..... If there was an existence where there wasn't the knowledge of such a choice, you would lack any cognizant ability; as a result, there would be zero point to that existence..... similar to a balloon inflated with hydrogen!

 

[TomTomHatesCats]

A measurement does not prove or disprove the existence of something...to me personally.

Did you mean to write this? If a measurement of something does not prove its existence to you, what does?

-Tom

 

[truth_not_allowed]

This is simple reasoning....... There can be no realization of God without the counterpart Satan...... Destroy Satan, and you destroy God!