Evidence that homosexuality is wrong..?

SpiritDriven · Sep 11, 2007

Excuse me for interuppting here people....however does it not worry any of you that the lamp of your body...your eye...is focused totaly on what the flesh does here...and is no longer focused on Christ ?

After 42 pages surely you can agree to disagree and focus back on Christ again ?

Is it really more important to suffer disqualification and endure the indignation of God...just to proove any point to a man or men who God has shut up in disobedience anyway ?

Ohioprof · Sep 11, 2007

JohnChapter14 said:
Actually, those are some prophecies the jewish people look at when they look for the Messiah, especially Isaiah53.

They are really important to know if you have faith in Jesus, even if your not a bible literalist.

John,

I apologize if I sounded dismissive of your effort. I realize you took time to share those Bible quotations with me, and I appreciate that. However, I do not believe in prophecy. Any prophecy, from any faith. I don't read the Bible quotations that people post here. I skip over them....all of them. I've seen gay people beaten up with people's Bible verses in these forums enough by now to have a developed a strong distaste for every Bible verse that people post, even the ones I used to like. I skip over all of them here because of the way that the anti-gay Christians use the Bible to attack gay people.

But I do appreciate YOUR sharing. You seem like a genuiunely kind and thoughtful person.

Ohioprof · Sep 11, 2007

SpiritDriven said:
Excuse me for interuppting here people....however does it not worry any of you that the lamp of your body...your eye...is focused totaly on what the flesh does here...and is no longer focused on Christ ?

After 42 pages surely you can agree to disagree and focus back on Christ again ?

Is it really more important to suffer disqualification and endure the indignation of God...just to proove any point to a man or men who God has shut up in disobedience anyway ?

I'm not sure what this post means.

RMDY · Sep 13, 2007

davedjy said:
Homosexuality is a valid orientation in over 450 vertebrate species...hardly an "unnatural desire"!

Were not animals

EnemyPartyII · Sep 13, 2007

JohnChapter14 said:
Were not animals

a. yes we are

b. All the "homosexuality isn't natural" crowd seems perfectly happy to make assumptions about what is natural or otherwise, but when challenged with the FACT that homosexuality is common in nature they resort to "we aren't animals" platitudes... perhaps if you would give us a solid definition of what you MEAN by "homosexuality isn't natural" that is consistent and applicable across the board, it might be easier to understand why you have such a problem with a group of people who never did anything to you

EnemyPartyII · Sep 13, 2007

i.e. define what you mean by "natural"

D.W.Washburn · Sep 13, 2007

JohnChapter14 said:
Were not animals

Technically, yes, we are.

The word animal is commonly used in reference to non-human animals, but scientifically humans are classified as members of the kingdom animalia.

Wiccan_Child · Sep 13, 2007

JohnChapter14 said:
Were not animals

There is absolutely nothing that differentiates humans from animals. So I'm going to have to disagree with you here.

I'm still waiting for your comments on my reply to your definition of 'natural' ('that which is learned, not inborn').

Phinehas2 · Sep 13, 2007

Dear Wiccan_child,

There is absolutely nothing that differentiates humans from animals. So I'm going to have to disagree with you here.

Hmmn, I have never seen an animal with a degree in pure physics

I'm still waiting for your comments on my reply to your definition of 'natural' ('that which is learned, not inborn').

I think we have all been through this more than once. In order to disagree on the issue of same-sex sex,
We dont all trust the Bible as authoratitive.
We have a different understanding of love
We have a different understanding of the words homosexual and heterosexual.
We have a different understanding of what natural means.
In fact we often in more disgareement over most things than the average non-believer I talk to

Wiccan_Child · Sep 13, 2007

Phinehas2 said:
Hmmn, I have never seen an animal with a degree in pure physics

Nor have I seen a whale be accepted into a tribe of gorillas. Which one do we cast out of the set of animals?

Phinehas2 said:
I think we have all been through this more than once. In order to disagree on the issue of same-sex sex,
We dont all trust the Bible as authoratitive.
We have a different understanding of love
We have a different understanding of the words homosexual and heterosexual.
We have a different understanding of what natural means.
In fact we often in more disgareement over most things than the average non-believer I talk to

I haven't given my understanding of love, homosexuality, heterosexuality, or 'natural'. I don't see why you think we disagree on these.

But that said, I'll show you mine if you show me yours

Basically, if we are to discuss the statement 'Homosexuality is unnatural, therefore it is immoral", we have to agree on the key terms (namely: 'homosexuality' & 'unnatural'; while we would undoubtedly disagree on what actions are (im/a)moral, I think we'd agree on what morality is).

Phinehas2 · Sep 13, 2007

Dear Wiccan_child,

Nor have I seen a whale be accepted into a tribe of gorillas. Which one do we cast out of the set of animals?

J sorry you havelost me there who says we should cast out?

Basically, if we are to discuss the statement 'Homosexuality is unnatural, therefore it is immoral", we have to agree on the key terms (namely: 'homosexuality' & 'unnatural'; while we would undoubtedly disagree on what actions are (im/a)moral, I think we'd agree on what morality is).

I believe homosexuality is same-sex attraction/orientation as in the dictionary. I believe it is natural for people who feel such temptations, but unnatural in that is not normal as in the most frequent occurrence, and dysfunctional in biological terms.
But thats entirely separate from morality, I may get the natural temptation to steal, but I don’t think that’s moral. But for Christians what is moral is up to God.

Jerrell · Sep 13, 2007

RegularGuy said:
Technically, yes, we are.

The word animal is commonly used in reference to non-human animals, but scientifically humans are classified as members of the kingdom animalia.

umans were created by God above the rest of the animals. Hence, we are the most like God, and the most intelligent. Animals do not have the same wisdom and intelligence that we do, thus it is not okay to try to approve homosexuality as natural just because animals do it. Animals are canabals, will you also call it natural and practice it? Animalseat their dung and ticks off each others backs, will you also call that natural and prctice it yourself? Dogs sniff each other's butts, will you call that natural will you also practice it?

*You- is a refernce to everyone here, who wishes to respond.

The argument that just because animals do it means it's natural is not a good argument. THe behavior of animals does not approve oromit the judgment of God that ho0mosexuality is unnatural, and an abomination.

Ohioprof · Sep 13, 2007

Jerrell said:
umans were created by God above the rest of the animals. Hence, we are the most like God, and the most intelligent. Animals do not have the same wisdom and intelligence that we do, thus it is not okay to try to approve homosexuality as natural just because animals do it. Animals are canabals, will you also call it natural and practice it? Animalseat their dung and ticks off each others backs, will you also call that natural and prctice it yourself? Dogs sniff each other's butts, will you call that natural will you also practice it?

*You- is a refernce to everyone here, who wishes to respond.

The argument that just because animals do it means it's natural is not a good argument. THe behavior of animals does not approve oromit the judgment of God that ho0mosexuality is unnatural, and an abomination.

I don't think humans are above animals. I think that belief has contributed to the destruction of the environment.

D.W.Washburn · Sep 13, 2007

Jerrell said:
umans were created by God above the rest of the animals. Hence, we are the most like God, and the most intelligent. Animals do not have the same wisdom and intelligence that we do, thus it is not okay to try to approve homosexuality as natural just because animals do it. Animals are canabals, will you also call it natural and practice it? Animalseat their dung and ticks off each others backs, will you also call that natural and prctice it yourself? Dogs sniff each other's butts, will you call that natural will you also practice it?

*You- is a refernce to everyone here, who wishes to respond.

The argument that just because animals do it means it's natural is not a good argument. THe behavior of animals does not approve oromit the judgment of God that ho0mosexuality is unnatural, and an abomination.

Homo Sapiens is an animal with opposable thumbs, highly developed language skills, reasoning ability, imaginative capacity, moral sense, etc. Pretty impressive for an animal, but still an animal. I'd say that we are creatures made in the image of our Creator, but we are still creatures.

Some human beings are born with same-sex attraction. It is their nature. It occurs in other species as well. So, to say that homosexuality is unnatural is not correct.

Since human beings have all that imaginative capacity, reasoning ability, moral sense, etc. we can, and should, ask how a person who is by nature homosexual can live ethically.

Some answer that question: "Change! Be heterosexual." Unfortunately, change is not a viable option for the vast majority of homosexuals. Maybe for any homosexuals.

Some answer that question: "Be celibate!" And for some homosexuals this may be reasonable. The witness of the church, from St. Paul onward, is that celibacy is a gift. Not everyone is cut out for the celibate life.

So, in this age, using our reasoning ability, imaginative capacity and moral sense, some of us are advocating that homosexuals be held to the same standard of morality that heterosexuals are, ie. that they express their sexuality in committed, covenanted, exclusive partnerships. To put that more simply: same-sex marriages.

Wiccan_Child · Sep 13, 2007

Phinehas2 said:
sorry you have lost me there who says we should cast out?

You said: Hmmn, I have never seen an animal with a degree in pure physics
I took this to mean: because no non-human has gotten a degree in pure physics, non-humans and humans cannot both be members of the set of animals (specifically, humans are not animals).
Thus, I made a parallel argument to highlight the flaw in your argument (specifically, your choice of distinguishing trait is arbitrary).

Phinehas2 said:
I believe homosexuality is same-sex attraction/orientation as in the dictionary.

Agreed.

Phinehas2 said:
I believe it is natural for people who feel such temptations, but unnatural in that is not normal as in the most frequent occurrence, and dysfunctional in biological terms.

What you call 'unnatural' is called 'normal' for everyone else.
Red-hair is infrequent; would you call it unnatural?
I am also unaware of the biological term 'dysfunctional'.

Phinehas2 said:
But thats entirely separate from morality, I may get the natural temptation to steal, but I dont think thats moral. But for Christians what is moral is up to God.

Naturally. The question, then, is what does God deem moral?

Wiccan_Child · Sep 13, 2007

Jerrell said:
The argument that just because animals do it means it's natural is not a good argument. THe behavior of animals does not approve oromit the judgment of God that ho0mosexuality is unnatural, and an abomination.

You misunderstand: it is a counter-argument to those who call it unnatural (and therefore immoral).

UnitedInChrist · Sep 13, 2007

Topaz said:
Homosexuality is a side-effect of pedophilia.

Now isn't this rich....LOL. Thanks for the afternoon humor..i needed a laugh. Oh, and I'll pray for you as well...

MrPirate · Sep 14, 2007

Phinehas2 said:
I believe homosexuality is same-sex attraction/orientation as in the dictionary. I believe it is natural for people who feel such temptations, but unnatural in that is not normal as in the most frequent occurrence,

By this reasoning being left handed is not natural . Neither is having red hair, or blue eyes or being exceptionally tall natural things. as none of these occure "frequently"

and dysfunctional in biological terms.

That is your opinion and entirely unsupported.

But thats entirely separate from morality, I may get the natural temptation to steal, but I dont think thats moral. But for Christians what is moral is up to God.

Its rather offensive to compare a minority to a criminal act. Would you compare blacks to rapists or Jews to murders?

MrPirate · Sep 14, 2007

Jerrell said:
umans were created by God above the rest of the animals. Hence, we are the most like God, and the most intelligent. Animals do not have the same wisdom and intelligence that we do, thus it is not okay to try to approve homosexuality as natural just because animals do it. Animals are canabals, will you also call it natural and practice it? Animalseat their dung and ticks off each others backs, will you also call that natural and prctice it yourself? Dogs sniff each other's butts, will you call that natural will you also practice it?

*You- is a refernce to everyone here, who wishes to respond.

The argument that just because animals do it means it's natural is not a good argument. THe behavior of animals does not approve oromit the judgment of God that ho0mosexuality is unnatural, and an abomination.

Rabbits dont hate based on the color of their fur.
Pandas dont discriminate based on religion
Trout dont wage war
Koalas don rape
Wolves dont use drugs
Antelope dont justify prejudice by claiming some other antelopes are unnatural

So who is the wiser? Humans or animals?

EnemyPartyII · Sep 14, 2007

Phinehas2 said:
Dear Wiccan_child,
Hmmn, I have never seen an animal with a degree in pure physics

I think we have all been through this more than once. In order to disagree on the issue of same-sex sex,
We dont all trust the Bible as authoratitive.
We have a different understanding of love
We have a different understanding of the words homosexual and heterosexual.
We have a different understanding of what natural means.
In fact we often in more disgareement over most things than the average non-believer I talk to

why don't you tell us what YOU think "natural" means?

And yes, there are some animals with advanced degrees in physics. Representatives of the species Homo sapiens sapiens

Evidence that homosexuality is wrong..?

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