Evidence that homosexuality is wrong..?

Phinehas2 · Sep 7, 2007

Dear Wiccan_Child,
Well in Biblical terms what is natural is man and woman, we know that because that’s what the Bible tells us right from Genesis 2 and throughout the Bible. So when the Romans texts says the un-natural is men with men its obvious what the natural and unnatural is.
If however one decides the criteria is that because people want to do things, that means natural I also agree, but equally I can say same-sex sex is not natural because most people don’t want to do it. The other basic point is that as the sexual organs produce new life it is logical to see man and woman as the natural
What do you think?

Wiccan_Child · Sep 7, 2007

Phinehas2 said:
Well in Biblical terms what is natural is man and woman, we know that because thats what the Bible tells us right from Genesis 2 and throughout the Bible.

But this does not mean that same-sex relationships are unnatural. Indeed, if the human race starts with two people, then they have to be a man and a woman; God's actions are not a declaration of morality, but an act of necessity.

Phinehas2 said:
So when the Romans texts says the un-natural is men with men its obvious what the natural and unnatural is.

I disagree that Romans says this. Bear with me.

The verses in question state:

Because of this did God give them up to dishonourable affections 1, for even their females did change 2 the natural 3 use into that against nature 4; and in like manner also the males having left the natural use of the female, did burn in their longing toward one another; males with males working shame, and the recompense of their error that was fit 5, in themselves receiving.

1) 'Dishonourable/vile/evil affections/desires/passions' refers not to passion or lust, but to the "frenzied state of mind that many ancient mystery cults induced in worshipers by means of wine, drugs and music" [A]. This is the result of ritual sex orgies common among Pagan cults of the time, and it is these cults that Paul talks of here .

2) 'Change/abandoned/exchanged' is an important word because it shows that Paul is referring to those who are heterosexual and engage in heterosexual sex exclusively, but change to engage in sexual activities that is against their nature. While unusual in modern society, it occurs via peer pressure, drugs, etc, all this that occurred in Pagan sex rites. Thus, Paul is berating those who go against their own personal sexual orientation during Pagan sex rituals.

3) 'Natural', from the Greek 'phooskos', more accurately translates as, 'inborn', 'produced by / agreeable to nature', etc [c]. This word on it's own is open to interpritation: to the GLBT community, mental health experts, and human sexuality researchers, a small percentage (oft quoted as ~2-5%) of human adults are born homo- or bi- sexual, and this is therefore thier 'inborn' nature. Alternatively, most religious conservatives, and perhaps Paul himselph, view all same-sex acts, relationships, and inclinations to be unnatural.

4) 'Against / contrary to nature', or 'sin with each other', from the Greek 'para physin (παρα φυσι&#957', implies a moral condemnation. However, Paul uses 'para physin' in 1 Cor 11:14 to call long hair on men unusual and not ordinary, and in Romans 11:24 to describe God's good actions to bring the Jews and Gentiles together (both uses are clearly do not imply moral condemnation, and it is likely prejudice on the part of the translators that made them mistranslate this example of 'para physin').

5) The 'recompense... that was fit', or 'error... that was due', is a reference to the STD's that were ravaging the Pagan sex cults at the time.

[A] R.S. Truluck, "The six Bible passages used to condemn homosexuals," at: http://www.truluck.com/html/

"Free to be gay: A brief look at the Bible and homosexuality," Universal fellowship of Metropolitan Community Churches, at: http://www.ualberta.ca/~cbidwell/UFMCC/

[C] "How to be true to the Bible and say 'Yes' to same-sex unions," at: http://members.aol.com/DrSwiney/bennett.html

That is, Paul is not calling homosexuality unnatural.

Phinehas2 said:

If however one decides the criteria is that because people want to do things, that means natural I also agree, but equally I can say same-sex sex is not natural because most people dont want to do it.

Click to expand...

Most people don't want to sleep with men (since men outnumber women 1012:1000); does this mean that sleeping with men is unnatural? Indeed, one could use this argument to condemn all but the most universal of practices (individual religions, ideologies, rites, governments, jobs, and yes, sexualities).

Phinehas2 said:

The other basic point is that as the sexual organs produce new life it is logical to see man and woman as the natural
What do you think?

Click to expand...

I think that this is an overly simplified view of humanity.

RMDY · Sep 7, 2007

Wiccan, did you know God loves you and is offering a wonderful plan for your life?

Ohioprof · Sep 7, 2007

JohnChapter14 said:
Wiccan, did you know God loves you and is offering a wonderful plan for your life?

That's nice, but how does that relate to the topic that folks have been discussing?

Wiccan_Child · Sep 7, 2007

JohnChapter14 said:
Wiccan, did you know God loves you and is offering a wonderful plan for your life?

Oh Jeez

No, I do not know this. I know that some people believe it, but I do not know it to be true.
So no, I don't.

Ohioprof · Sep 7, 2007

Wiccan_Child said:
Oh Jeez

No, I do not know this. I know that some people believe it, but I do not know it to be true.
So no, I don't.

Some folks think we are in Sunday School.

Wiccan_Child · Sep 7, 2007

Ohioprof said:
Some folks think we are in Sunday School.

My apologies Ohioprof: I reported your post by mistake! Nothing personal

RMDY · Sep 7, 2007

Wiccan_Child said:
Oh Jeez

No, I do not know this. I know that some people believe it, but I do not know it to be true.
So no, I don't.

He does. Has anyone ever told you that before?

RMDY · Sep 7, 2007

Even when people worshipped pagan god's, Yawhah tearfully called his people back to him because he loved them but was heart broken that they didn't love him back.

God feel the same way about you. He is waiting for you to walk into his arms.

Wiccan_Child · Sep 7, 2007

JohnChapter14 said:
He does. Has anyone ever told you that before?

Yes. I saw no reason to believe them then, and I see no reason to believe you now.
But you are welcome to try. Who knows, you may succeed.

JohnChapter14 said:
Even when people worshipped pagan god's, Yawhah tearfully called his people back to him because he loved them but was heart broken that they didn't love him back.

If I remember Romans1, God cursed the ex-Christian Pagans with disease and unnatural urges. I hardly call that love.

JohnChapter14 said:
God feel the same way about you. He is waiting for you to walk into his arms.

I do not believe he exists, so my sympathy is somewhat lacking.

RMDY · Sep 7, 2007

Wiccan_Child said:
Yes. I saw no reason to believe them then, and I see no reason to believe you now.
But you are welcome to try. Who knows, you may succeed.

When I watch you speak and when I was thinking about you just now, I saw past everything you have been speaking on this forum. You remind me of Paul, how he use to have a strong believe against Jesus and his followers but then God used his mightily for his purpose.

If I remember Romans1, God cursed the ex-Christian Pagans with disease and unnatural urges. I hardly call that love.

God also disciplines people. I've been disciplined before. When I've told non-christians about it before, they didn't believe that is was God. But doesn't God also say he disciplines those he loves. He loves christians he predestined to him, but when they turn away, it breaks his heart and he either makes a point of it, an example, or does it to get your attention----or the attention of others, or gives them in to their own desires until they repent and come back to him.

For example,
God hardened the heart of pharoah for the purpose of bringing Israel out of Egypt and revealing himself to the people he predestined for him and to the world, so that they'd know he was the one true God.

Ohioprof · Sep 7, 2007

Wiccan_Child said:
My apologies Ohioprof: I reported your post by mistake! Nothing personal

No problem.

Wiccan_Child · Sep 7, 2007

JohnChapter14 said:
When I watch you speak and when I was thinking about you just now, I saw past everything you have been speaking on this forum. You remind me of Paul, how he use to have a strong believe against Jesus and his followers but then God used his mightily for his purpose.

To use the vernacular, God only knows.

JohnChapter14 said:
God also disciplines people. I've been disciplined before. When I've told non-christians about it before, they didn't believe that is was God. But doesn't God also say he disciplines those he loves. He loves christians he predestined to him, but when they turn away, it breaks his heart and he either makes a point of it, an example, or does it to get your attention----or the attention of others, or gives them in to their own desires until they repent and come back to him.

But my point is that this is hardly the behaviour of someone who loves his followers.
Consider a cult leader who genuinely loves his followers. But he so loves them that he can't bear for them to leave. So when one scuttles off, the leader rather extravagently mutilates the convert's loved ones. To me, this is the actions of a madman: he will not allow his people to leave, and will cause gross harm to those who attempt to do so.
Alarming, to say the least.

For example,
God hardened the heart of pharoah for the purpose of bringing Israel out of Egypt and revealing himself to the people he predestined for him and to the world, so that they'd know he was the one true God.[/quote]

RMDY · Sep 8, 2007

Wiccan_Child,

When Adam sinned, we all suffered for it. Was it fair?
Do you think it was fair than an innocent man should die for a death that we deserved?

RMDY · Sep 8, 2007

Do you think God is evil for putting his only Son to death in the place of you and I, and every other gentile on this planet who ever lived?

SpiritDriven · Sep 8, 2007

There is somthing that is overlooked by everybody.

Christian ans Muslim exist by the will of God alone, everything exists by the will of God alone...or it would not exist at all to begin with.

The same applies to Heterosexuals...homosexuals and bi Sexuals...hey mayby there is even mono sexuals out there for all I know....

With out God nothing happens at all to begin with...

Peace

Ohioprof · Sep 8, 2007

JohnChapter14 said:
Wiccan_Child,

When Adam sinned, we all suffered for it. Was it fair?
Do you think it was fair than an innocent man should die for a death that we deserved?

Adam did not exist. The Genesis story of the Garden is just a fable.

Ohioprof · Sep 8, 2007

SpiritDriven said:
There is somthing that is overlooked by everybody.

Christian ans Muslim exist by the will of God alone, everything exists by the will of God alone...or it would not exist at all to begin with.

The same applies to Heterosexuals...homosexuals and bi Sexuals...hey mayby there is even mono sexuals out there for all I know....

With out God nothing happens at all to begin with...

Peace

And the new category "metrosexuals." (I'm not entirely sure what that is, but my colleague at work says that he is a metrosexual by virtue of his fine taste in clothes. He is married to a woman and has a child, but I guess the clothes are supposed to have some significance.)

Wiccan_Child · Sep 8, 2007

JohnChapter14 said:
When Adam sinned, we all suffered for it. Was it fair?

No. Punishing the child for the sins of the parent is obscene.

JohnChapter14 said:
Do you think it was fair than an innocent man should die for a death that we deserved?

No.

JohnChapter14 said:
Do you think God is evil for putting his only Son to death in the place of you and I, and every other gentile on this planet who ever lived?

No. I think he is evil for completely other reasons, but not for that. In the words of Dawkins, the god of the OT is "the most unpleasant character in all fiction ... a misogynist, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully". This a sentiment I agree with.

While we're on the subject of the 'sacrifice' of Jesus, could you explain to me exactly why God chose to sacrifice himself to himself in order to appease himself, and thus allow himself to lift in a roundabout fasion a punishment that he himself put in place?
It seems a bit sympotmatic of DID to me.

Wiccan_Child · Sep 8, 2007

SpiritDriven said:
There is somthing that is overlooked by everybody.

Christian ans Muslim exist by the will of God alone, everything exists by the will of God alone...or it would not exist at all to begin with.

The same applies to Heterosexuals...homosexuals and bi Sexuals...hey mayby there is even mono sexuals out there for all I know....

With out God nothing happens at all to begin with...

Peace

But then there's cries of 'It's the Fall!', or, 'We were made heterosexual, but some chose to be homosexual!'.

Evidence that homosexuality is wrong..?

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