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Evidence Genesis is just a fable

shernren

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And here I thought I only had to stay on the atheistic threads if i wanted to hear condescention!

Sorry that this came across as being directed to all creationists. It was posted specifically in response to this post:


If we are wrong when we disagree and wrong when we don't, then what other way out is there for us?

Anyways:

Interesting, so God created the heavens and the earth at night?....Doesn't really have anything to do with them not being real days...

Read the passage carefully.
And God said, “Let there be light,”
and there was light.
And God saw that the light was good.
And God separated the light from the darkness. God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night.
And there was evening and there was morning, the first day. (Gen 1:3-5, ESV)
The "and" marks an Eastern style of storytelling where a sequence of events is being recounted. So God said "let there be light", then there was light, then God saw that the light was good, then God separated light from darkness and named them, then there was evening and morning.

You see? It's not that God created at night. It's that God created, and then night came.

I never thought that God rested at night during creation.....I never thought anything more than that "evening and morning" meant that they were just days in which God did the creating.......sounds like too much is being read into this

All Scripture is God-breathed, isn't it?

Not necessarily.....I think that is something that has been read into the passage....

And just what might that be?


You think that's bad? Try this out:
And this was why the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because he was doing these things on the Sabbath. But Jesus answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I am working.” (John 5:16-17, ESV)
From the point of view of this verse God has never stopped working, not even once. (This is even more significant because Jesus said this on and of the earthly Sabbath which is meant to reflect God's rest!)

In any case, my reasons stand: the seventh day doesn't get a night finish unlike the other six, and is referred to by the author of Hebrews as a rest we can still enter into. There is nothing you have presented that negates this evidence.


That's fair enough. So would you be agreeing with me that the Exodus and Leviticus comparisons are not ironclad evidence either for or against the days being six literal days, right?


Now this really is something. Here you are, saying to me on the one hand that I am reading something into the passage, and then pulling out heliocentric rotation about the earth's axis with the other! Isn't that reading something into the passage, if anything is?

Who told you that day is produced by the Earth's rotation about its axis? Not the Bible, for sure; science told you that. Which doesn't make it wrong, let's get that clear. But it's a bit disingenuous when you import any sort of science you like into interpreting Genesis 1, and then cry foul when evolutionists let their science influence their interpretation.

As far as I'm concerned, when I read Genesis 1, the sun and the moon govern evening and morning. So before the sun and moon were created, who's to say how long evening and morning were, or what they even were?

Why has your entirely Biblical conclusion been affirmed by an extra-biblical source?

Just because some bright guy had the same idea as me doesn't mean the idea isn't from the Bible.
 
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Hupomone10

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I disagree. While it might be a common tactic of Creationists to create strawmen arguments (an argument equally valid against evolutionists) and say that evolutionists (theistic evolutionists in particular) place human wisdom above the Bible, it is certainly NOT a common tactic to be disingenuous and dishonest.

But I can only speak for myself; as far as I'm aware I have been neither dishonest nor disingenuous. As to the latter, although I often use humor and sarcasm, I am deeply concerned for others and certain of their views that have determined their worldview and clouded God out of the equation, not to mention undermined faith in God's Word.

From the enemy's standpoint, the strategy of pushing the evolution philosophy at the Christian is mainly to undermine the authority of God's Word. If he can undermine it in such a general place as Genesis and regarding origins, the subconscious mind will do the rest and often begins doubting God's Word in other areas of life where God's Word could deliver them from life's problems.

Blessings,
H.
 
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Hupomone10

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On the other hand, I feel that if a sovereign God allowed something so crucial as the very beginning of His Scripture to be written such that His children for thousands of years would believe a lie, then this is the area where it would "appear that he sinned." A sovereign God could have easily inspired it to be written differently.

I love your thoughts here and your sentiment.

I would ask you, along with those thoughts to merely consider both possibilities.

Having known personally many believers who espouse Creation and followed the works of the recent writers, I can assure you though, that it is not about "not (being) comfortable with not being the center of what the purpose of the universe is." It is mostly about the integrity and trustworthiness of God's Word, and about truth as opposed to regarding man's wisdom, even science, as truth. If we are to have confidence in one or the other, it might be better to give more credence to men and women who through the centuries has poured their lives into correctly translating and expounding on the Scriptures than in people whose purpose is to show that all creation happened according to naturalistic means - matter and energy, shaped by pure chance.

Blessings,
H.
 
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Keachian

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Yet many times we have said that we do not do this and yet you continue to accuse us, I went to the bible first, I looked and found a picture of God, I went and looked to see what creation tells us found that the two didn't line up, so I looked to see what the theories were for and against reconciling what I saw in nature to what it says in the bible. I will list all of the ones that I have looked at and if you believe I have missed any out then please tell me I will go look them up and see whether they work better.
Gap theory is not supported by the text in any way and you still have the problem of the phylogenetic tree where birds evolved far later than fish.

Omphalos hypothesis creates the predicament of a deceptive God and a God who is in no way consistent, he asks us to believe his miracles and wonders when we cannot believe and cannot comprehend the universe just by looking at it.​

You might not be being so deliberately, but it is incredibly dishonest what some creationists do which is cherry-pick parts of early evolutionary work and pass it off as the whole of what the evolutionary theory is today. Then along comes any impressionable person who has been taught to believe that evolution is a farce and just parrots these "proofs" against evolution.

I don't believe that God is outside of evolution, I think one of the problems you have is that you believe that TE translates into deism, where God lit the fuse then left this whole cosmos spinning, this is not a good standpoint by any means, the God of the Bible is sustainer, nothing can be without him. I cannot even stand before him except through Christ my saviour and true God of true God.

I have yet to see this, and I have yet to treat God's word as any less reliable, it was never meant as a science book, I mean where you're able to find Pi it's equated to 3(bloody engineers) It is a book showing the wondrous glory of God and parts of his brilliant plan to reconcile all of creation back to him. The first chapters can be metaphors and still convey this wonderful truth

I see you're point but I don't understand why it has to be scientifically true. It is still as spiritually true as it has ever been, in fact released from the rigidity of a literal translation I see it serves a greater spiritual purpose which is to destroy any and all opposing spiritual beginings in a directed manner.

I love your thoughts here and your sentiment.

I would ask you, along with those thoughts to merely consider both possibilities.
Thankyou, you're battle is indeed admirable too. I'm always willing to challenge my thinking and refine my view.

Being the center of the Universe, whether in purpose or in fact has been something that has been theologically important for quite a lot of people, it does mean that we are in a cherished position in God's eyes, without this I think that some creationists faith would fall apart, (mine very nearly almost did) I take great solace in the words of Psalm 8,
It's like nothing matters about where I am in the universe, being the more it seems magnificent that the universe is I can't help but think it is so awesome because that's what God made it to be, to show off his Glory.

You say that it is more about the trustworthiness of God's Word, I don't doubt any of Jesus' words, I don't doubt Jesus, he is my salvation through him I am but a wretch, though this I don't think is what you meant. Why is God's word through scripture more important than God's word through creation, for God did surely speak it into being: "God said..."(Gen 1) Yet you hold that it is to be less trusted than the spiritual story that he breathed out through his prophets and apostles.

[You're putting trust] in people whose purpose is to show that all creation happened according to naturalistic means - matter and energy, shaped by pure chance.
Thing is you keep saying this and I keep on saying that this is not what I am doing, nor is it what scientists are doing, just as you say I'm defrauding the work of thousands of theologians(I'd argue that I'm not) I say you are defrauding the work of thousands of Christian scientists who do see God as sustainer of all and that without God we couldn't even be looking at what evolution is or does. I believe that separated from God we do not know what the evolutionary process looks like, separated from God we do not know what the universe looks like, sure an Atheist would say here look this is the universe without God, but really if God is in all through all and is who he says he is then the Universe cannot be seen without God
 
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Fencerguy

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Sorry that this came across as being directed to all creationists. It was posted specifically in response to this post:



If we are wrong when we disagree and wrong when we don't, then what other way out is there for us?
Not saying that disagreeing is wrong or agreeing is wrong, treating people that you differ in opinion from with condescention is wrong regardless.....No matter if you meant it generally or spcifically...


ok........So how is it a metaphorical day and not a literal day?



All Scripture is God-breathed, isn't it?
Meaning what exactly?








Further making my point that God's Seventh Day was temporal....existing within time, not some spiritual thing....

In any case, my reasons stand: the seventh day doesn't get a night finish unlike the other six, and is referred to by the author of Hebrews as a rest we can still enter into. There is nothing you have presented that negates this evidence.
Except for the fact that I gave you scripture passages (which you then gave more) indicating that God is still working.....and so the rest that we enter into obviously has a different connotation that the "rest" that God had on the Seventh Day.......
There is nothing that I have presented that you feel is good enough to change your opinion...



That's fair enough. So would you be agreeing with me that the Exodus and Leviticus comparisons are not ironclad evidence either for or against the days being six literal days, right?
right, they have nothing to do with verifying or refuting the 6 days, they sinmply reference the cycle of work and rest.....different point



I was making a hypothesis, suggesting an explanation...Not going into a long, drawn out sermon on why my interpretation of the passage is the most reasonable....there is a difference between reading one's own ideas into Scripture and simply making a guess as to what Scripture was talking about...

Who told you that day is produced by the Earth's rotation about its axis?
From Merriam Webster Dictionary: " the period of rotation of a planet (as earth) or a moon on its axis"
Day - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
Did I cry foul about you importing your own science into Genesis 1? I don't think I did, I think my issue is with your interpretation of Genesis 1; not the science you appeal to to understand Genesis 1....

As far as I'm concerned, when I read Genesis 1, the sun and the moon govern evening and morning. So before the sun and moon were created, who's to say how long evening and morning were, or what they even were?
Decent question; on the flip side, why do we need to assume that they were anything besides what we know of as "evening" and "morning"?



Just because some bright guy had the same idea as me doesn't mean the idea isn't from the Bible.
It mean's that its still his idea, he just got to where he was by interpreting the Bible, which we have already established is not objectively infallible....
 
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Fencerguy

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But the general creationist decision is either that the world has not progressed or is in fact deteriorating. That is what I mean by "as is"
How many creationists do you know who do not believe that the world has progessed (I assume you mean biologically, not spiritually or ethically)?


except the speed of light is a constant (gravity barring) and even when it does get changed due to gravity it is slowed down, not sped up.
It is a constant as far as we know. Unless you know something I don't; there is currently no way to measure if there are things that travel faster than the speed of light; or if in fact light can go faster than the speed we are able to measure....


Who said God broke the laws of phsyics? He created those laws dude.....And if God has the power to work above and independent of the laws of phsyics, why is it a big shock that he could make things visible that are so far away? What you have observed is not wrong...I don't know that observations can be wrong.....conclusions can be wrong though, and many times are.


I agree and I feel that this is what I have gained through my struggles with scripture, God and Science.
We all do this, but we must discern and objectively work to ensure that our understanding remains both scientifically and theologically valid.


The problem with saying something like this is that it introduces "Gap Theory" which is not apparent in the text and this is why I don't subscribe to this idea.
How does it introduce Gap Theory? Gap theory states that the 6 days were either verrrry long themselves, or that there was a verrrrry long time in between each day. I never made any such insinuation. We don't know how much time passed between "In the beginning" and "now the earth was dark and formless." Also, we don't know how long Adam and Eve walked with God in the garden...They could have spent many thousands, or even millions of years in the garden. Age only begins to be considered after the Fall of Man (when death became the concrete end of the physical human existence on earth). So if you want to call that Gap Theory fine, but what I have postulated here is not unbiblical....
 
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shernren

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ok........So how is it a metaphorical day and not a literal day?

In my view, that makes it a metaphorical day because nowhere else in Scripture do we see God resting at night. Our night, at least.


Yes, that would be right.

I haven't fully got my views together on this one yet. It seems that there is a major passage in the Bible (Hebrews 4 interpreting Genesis 2:1-3) which describes God as resting up to now. Then there is another major passage in the Bible (John 5) which describes God as working up to now.

But there is no single passage in the Bible that mentions God resting for exactly one day and then working again. Sure, that's what we are told to do, but we are never told that God did that. Ex 20 simply mentions that God rested on the seventh day, without ever saying when / if He ever started work. Heb 4 says God rested, and doesn't mention anything about Him starting work again. John 5 says God works, but doesn't mention anything about God resting (even more significant because it is Jesus' commentary / response to the Sabbath).

And there is the significant argument from omission. How hard would it have been for God to say that "there was evening, and there was morning, the seventh day"? He said it six times. Miamited thinks God did that to make sure we got the point. Well, why not make sure we got the point another time?

right, they have nothing to do with verifying or refuting the 6 days, they sinmply reference the cycle of work and rest.....different point

Fair enough.


Well, that ain't the Bible!

God named the light Day, and the darkness Night, in Genesis 1:5, which is quite different from our everyday understanding. When I turn on the light in my room I don't say that it's now daytime - and yet, in the understanding of Genesis 1, the light I just turned on has its ultimate origins in the light God first made on the first day, which is named Day.

The irony is that creationists will often scold evolutionists for assuming that carbon decay rates and the like were the same all the way into the past. Well, how do they know the length of a day was the same in the past as well? That be imported from science. Why, I don't think the Bible ever even tells us that a day is twenty-four hours long!

Decent question; on the flip side, why do we need to assume that they were anything besides what we know of as "evening" and "morning"?

We can't assume either way: the question remains open until more evidence is gathered from the rest of the passage, and the information from the rest of the passage indicates that these may well have not been evenings and mornings as we knew them.

Did I cry foul about you importing your own science into Genesis 1? I don't think I did, I think my issue is with your interpretation of Genesis 1; not the science you appeal to to understand Genesis 1....

But again, where have I imported my own science into Genesis 1??

The first three evenings and mornings have neither sun nor moon (from the passage);
"Evening and morning" indicates night (from the Bible);
God stopping work at night is highly unusual (from the Bible);
God's rest seems to be continuing even now (from Hebrews 4);
so these are not ordinary days.

Where have I used science?

It mean's that its still his idea, he just got to where he was by interpreting the Bible, which we have already established is not objectively infallible....

Indeed. It is just an interpretation; but what I can claim is that it's the best interpretation I know of so far.
 
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Fencerguy

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In my view, that makes it a metaphorical day because nowhere else in Scripture do we see God resting at night. Our night, at least.
Ok, I don't know that God rested during our night either, but all Genesis says is that there was evening and morning, connoting a day....doesn't say that God only worked during the day, just that there was evening and morning....



Yes, that would be right.
Then you have gone into the realm of dogma, not interpretation.....

Sure, the Bible makes no claim that it is easy to understand! We can't be expected to know all of what the Bible says correctly....

Yeah, though this lack of explanation of whether God is working still or is resting still indicates to me that it is of secondary importance.....So we have no reason to doubt that the Seventh Day was a literal day, and it doesn't really matter that much if God is still resting (after the Seventh Day)....

My guess would be that the rest of scripture bears the fact that God began working again....so the "evening and morning" part was not necessary by the time the Seventh Day came around....

Well, that ain't the Bible!
so........the definition of a day is invalid because it ain't in the Bible?

Again, don't you think that this is God using the language and concepts available to the writer of scripture at the time that he lived? before artificial lights people didnt really do much of anything after it got dark, so a day quite literally was only the portion of time that the sun shone....

see my response above....The Bible was using language that was understandable at the time....



We can't assume either way: the question remains open until more evidence is gathered from the rest of the passage, and the information from the rest of the passage indicates that these may well have not been evenings and mornings as we knew them.
What information indicates this? I haven't seen much more than assumptions and opinions....



But again, where have I imported my own science into Genesis 1??
never said you did, you seem to be ignoring the fact that i have said nothing about you importing science into the passage. I take issue with your interpretation of the passage.....

never said you did....... I find fault with your assumption that the first three days were not ordinary days; with day being understood as the earth rotating on its axis....



Indeed. It is just an interpretation; but what I can claim is that it's the best interpretation I know of so far.
Which is an opinion....and that's fine, opinions are open to discussion and possible refutation....
 
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Roymond

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For starters, you can't take the whole book of Genesis as one thing and declare it "a fable or myth", for the simple reason that it is a collection of stories, and those stories come in different kinds of literature.

The closest thing in Genesis to "fable" would be the talking serpent, but that's one element of a story, not the whole thing, so using that to call the story of the Fall a fable would be incorrect. Thus, there's nothing that qualifies as fable in Genesis.

As for myth, using the literary sense and not the common meaning, yes, there's myth in Genesis, meaning that there are stories that are based on real events but are told using legendary and heroic elements with hyperbole and often in poetic prose.

That said, no: "godless science" is hardly all we have to "appeal to" for interpreting Genesis; in fact science isn't of much use at all for the simple reason that no part of Genesis was written in a way that cares in the slightest about science. Genesis has about as much to do with science as the poems of Robert Frost have to do with road maintenance. And in fact asking the question as you do indicates that you've already bought into the placement of science above scripture -- at least if I'm gathering correctly that you believe that for something to be true it has to be 100% scientifically accurate. Many Christians fall into that trap, not realizing that the idea doesn't come from scripture at all, it comes from the philosophy called scientific materialism, a philosophy that is atheistic at root.


That's not a real problem, in fact it's a fallacious argument loved by atheists. Just as finding a certain kind of literature in a library doesn't mean the whole library is that kind of literature, finding that one piece of one book in the Bible can be called "myth" says nothing at all about the rest of the Bible, because the Bible is in fact a library made up of a number of books, some of which are themselves collections of stories, covering well over a dozen different kinds of literature.

Calling a "phrase or expression in the Bible... mere myth" misunderstands what myth is: a lone statement can't be myth, only a complete story can. And we don't label a story myth because we don't like it, a story gets labeled myth because it has characteristic features of myth, i.e. heroic and legendary elements with hyperbole, and often using poetic structure and language.

The question you've avoided here solves all your questions: to decide what a portion of the Bible is saying you don't start with whether you like what it seems to you to say, you start with finding out what kind of literature that particular portion is supposed to be. Some may be chronicle, some may be poetry, some may be parable, some may be myth, and so on, and you decide the meaning based on which of those a portion is.

Regarding metaphor, there's a proper definition of metaphor; it isn't a kind of literature -- it's a phrase or sentence that uses one thing to illuminate understanding of another; for example "His was an uphill battle" to describe a lawsuit in a courtroom.


Oh, my; there is a great deal of confusion here!

First, "Creation, sin, the Fall, the devil as a temptor" is not the "foundation of the Bible", indeed it isn't even close: the foundation of the Bible is Jesus of Nazareth, Son of God and God the Son, born of the virgin Mary, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate. He is the center of the story and the reason why there even is a story! In fact there have been Christians in history who didn't have the Old Testament and they had no problem trusting in and following Christ. If he isn't your foundation, then you aren't doing theology, you're playing philosophical games. We don't trust in Jesus because of the Bible, we trust the Bible because of Jesus!

Now, evolution. Your first mistake is that evolution has nothing to do with the Big Bang -- it doesn't. Evolution doesn't even have to do with the origin of life. What evolution is about is how life, once it existed, developed and led to the great abundance of plants, animals, etc. that we have today (and
some that are extinct). Your second mistake is the assertion that in evolution "there is no need for any supernatural entity": while in a narrow sense this may be true, that narrow sense misses the point that evolution as a discipline of science can't say anything at all about supernatural entities; evolution concerns what can be observed, studied, investigated, and concluded from those, followed by testing those conclusions. The means for studying all involve the human senses, and we know quite well that our human senses aren't capable of finding God. So evolution by its scientific nature can't even comment about God, including that it can't comment about whether or not life was started by God, happened by chance, began because life is inevitable in the universe, resulted from aliens in another universe poking around in this one, or any other proposal however logical or outlandish.

Further, insisting that evolution rules out God indicates failure to understand evolution as well as failure of imagination. In my university days, I knew a fair number of students who had been atheists or agnostics who by studying science concluded that there must be a Designer -- and among those were some who reached that conclusion due to studying evolution. So evolution doesn't rule out God, to the contrary it has led people to God!

As a last point, do you realize that you are being rude by calling people "Christian Darwinists" with the implication that this is something bad? Most Christians in fact consider evolution to be the means God used to make all the creatures who live and ever have lived on this planet, and that most certainly does not mean that they "worship science", as you imply.
 
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Roymond

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Evolution is the foundation of modern atheism.....

The fact is, there is no compatibility between Christianity and evolution. You are simply trying to fit Christianity into the box that was made by atheistic men. But if that works for you...

Evolution is no more the foundation of atheism than Christianity was the "foundation" of the Dark Ages.

The fact that there are Nobel Prize winners in biology who have worked in evolutionary science and are Christians tells me that far smarter and wiser men that we are know that your assertion about compatibility is false.
 
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Job 33:6

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Are you familiar with the concept of a solid dome of the raqia which rested upon the creation of Genesis 1?

One reason that I wouldn't consider the Genesis days to be actually 24-hour days is that the ancient Hebrews appear to have not been aware that earth was even a globe. Given that domes rest upon flat land.

Here is a video that helps explain:

And one of the most simple ways to see this in scripture, it to consider that there are windows of the raqia which restrain water, open to release the waters of Noah's flood, then at the end of the flood these windows close back up and restrain the heavenly waters again, indicating the firmness of the firmament. Exodus, Job, psalms, Ezekiel, Genesis etc. All describe the dome as being things like molten metal, like a tent spread out over grasshoppers, like saphire, like pavement, like frozen water or ice, like crystal, in which God walks upon and above in human form, in which birds fly across the flat face of, in which stars are placed/pinned or stuck within, and root words of the raqia are also correlated to the concept of expanding or an expanse, such as expanded metal beat out or spread out like molten metal during blacksmithing. Just Google all verses in the OT regarding the raqia to see how they all collectively describe the raqia as a solid structure.

And once we understand that Genesis 1 was written in the perspective of ancients of a pre-scientific cosmogony, the question of if Yom meant 24-hours or not kind of becomes irrelevant when we realize that this prehistoric view encompassed a flat earth.
 
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