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If you are going to post something, post the whole thing, and not just an exert. This tells no one nothing.
Each time you argue that these texts could not possibly exist because the unborn children of the NT Bible writer had not come along yet to tell them what is scripture - you show that your speculation does not "survive the text". --
Acts 17
11 Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see IF these things were so.
Luke 24
27 Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures.
44 Now He said to them, “These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.” 45 Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, 46 and He said to them, “Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day, 47 and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.
And Christ said this - about "Sola Scriptura" testing of church tradition and doctrine.
Mark 7
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
In Isaiah 8:19 we find this "to the Law and to the Testimony if they speak not according to this Word there is no light in them".
There again we have sola scriptura - being taught.
And Paul insists that he and everyone else be tested that same way -
Gal 1:6-9
6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; 7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! 9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!
From my perspective, it sounds like you are assuming that accepting the authority of Scripture means accepting the authority of Scripture alone. And that when the Bible refers to "the Word of God" it is referring to Scripture alone. But the Bible says to hold fast to he oral Word. (Luke 10:16, 2 Thessalonians 2:15)
If you are going to post something, post the whole thing, and not just an exert. This tells no one nothing.
I'm hoping that just once, just once, you post something in its full context. That would be a great start.Would you like the entire book quoted?? the entire chapter?? Are you in doubt that this author is fully opposed to the non-Catholic POV, while at the same time scholarly enough to admit to the implications of it?
Here is the post - what "more" were you hoping for??
===========================================================
There are some exchanges here that contrast the RCC view of the wafer - the bread - in the communion service vs the non-RCC view.
There is a Catholic Commentary on the Baltimore Catechism after Vatican II that also addresses the two widely different points of view.
The Catholic statement we find in "The Faith Explained" by Leo Trese is 'instructive' even if this is a Catholic statement and I am not a Catholic.
Will post it. (However I don't know that this subject is specific to the OP about the Bible - unless the claim is that if you view the Mass as do many Catholics here - then you would have to reject Sola Scriptura testing of doctrine and tradition)
In any case - division on the POV exists - between Catholic and Protestants - so let's see what the Catholic view of that GAP is -
The Faith Explained – A bestselling RC commentary on the Baltimore Catechism post Vatican II by Leo J. Trese is promoted as “A standard reference for every Catholic home and library”. Complete with Papal Imprimatur -- Quote from page 350-351
Parenthetical inserts “mine”
===================quote
The Faith Explained – Page 350
“On this, the last night before His death, Jesus is making His last will and testament.
Ibid. Page 351
A last will is no place for figurative speech ; under the best of circumstances (human) courts sometimes have difficulty in interpreting a testator’s intentions aright, even without the confusion of symbolic language. Moreover, since Jesus is God, He knew that as a result of His words that night, untold millions of people would be worshiping him through the centuries under the appearance of the bread. if he would not really be present under those appearances, the worshippers would be adoring a mere piece of bread, and would be guilty of idolatry,. Certainly that is something that God Himself would set the stage for, by talking in obscure figurative speech.
…
IF Jesus was using a metaphor; if what He really meant was, “This bread is a sort of SYMBOL of My Body, and this is a SYMBOL of My Blood (not yet spilled – so they were not then participating in sacrifice); hereafter, any time that My followers get together and partake of the bread and wine like this, they will be honoring Me and representing My death”; if that IS what Jesus meant (as many protestants claim), then the apostles got Him all wrong . And through their misunderstanding ,mankind has for centuries worshiped A PIECE OF BREAD as God”
That isn't how it works. Also we don't really know what the author actually said because all that he said wasn't posted. Only a small bit. Its like saying that the Bible says "that there is no God", which is obviously taking a part out of context by not added the important part, i.e. "A fool says in his heart, that there is no God" You get what I'm saying here. Context is everything, and you guys love to post things out of context.Not exactly, if this writer was sincere, and endorsed by the Papacy, then all it would have to be proven is that the disciples misunderstood the Lord in what He spoke. If this is done, then his statement would be an admission of Papal error in teaching transubstantiation.
From my perspective, it sounds like you are assuming that accepting the authority of Scripture means accepting the authority of Scripture alone. And that when the Bible refers to "the Word of God" it is referring to Scripture alone. But the Bible says to hold fast to he oral Word. (Luke 10:16, 2 Thessalonians 2:15)
IMHO, you are conflating two issues.The point in contention is that we have examples in Acts 17:11, and in Mark 7:6-13 where it is not "scripture plus tradition" but scripture alone that is testing all tradition, doctrine, practice etc. Those texts "should not exist" if the anti-SS position were correct.
He has given you an expanded version... beyond that my friend, it's your duty to check the references if you so choose. As Bob said, how much context do you need?That isn't how it works. Also we don't really know what the author actually said because all that he said wasn't posted. Only a small bit. Its like saying that the Bible says "that there is no God", which is obviously taking a part out of context by not added the important part, i.e. "A fool says in his heart, that there is no God" You get what I'm saying here. Context is everything, and you guys love to post things out of context.
IMHO, you are conflating two issues.
These texts say that everything should be measured against Scripture. That is NOT the doctrine of sola scriptura. Rather that is doctrine of scriptural primacy, which has been taught since the early Church.
These texts say that everything should be measured against Scripture. That is NOT the doctrine of sola scriptura. .
The point in contention is that we have examples in Acts 17:11, and in Mark 7:6-13 where it is not "scripture plus tradition" but scripture alone that is testing all tradition, doctrine, practice etc. Those texts "should not exist" if the anti-SS position were correct.
That isn't how it works. Also we don't really know what the author actually said because all that he said wasn't posted. Only a small bit.
Its like saying that the Bible says "that there is no God", which is obviously taking a part out of context
I think that in both those cases, Scripture is being interpreted through Tradition or the Magisterium, not alone.
Acts 17
11 Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness,
examining the Scriptures daily to see IF
these things were so.
Mark 7
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
not according to the texts.
In both cases the magisterium is the non-Christian Jewish magisterium that is totally condemning Christ and Paul's teaching.
This is incredibly obvious in both examples.
Plenty of evidence in the Bible for the saints using the "sola scriptura" method to test all doctrine and tradition to "see IF those things are true"
Acts 17
11 Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see IF these things were so.
Luke 24
27 Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures.
44 Now He said to them, “These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.” 45 Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, 46 and He said to them, “Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day, 47 and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.
And Christ said this - about "Sola Scriptura" testing of church tradition and doctrine.
Mark 7
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
In Isaiah 8:19 we find this "to the Law and to the Testimony if they speak not according to this Word there is no light in them".
There again we have sola scriptura - being taught.
And Paul insists that he and everyone else be tested that same way -
Gal 1:6-9
6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; 7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! 9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!
We can know what had been preached by Paul as of Gal 1... by reading the texts themselves.
There was no new testament when these things were written
2 Thes 2:15
So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.
1 Corinthians 11:2
I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the traditions just as I passed them on to you.
Plenty of evidence in the Bible for the saints using the "sola scriptura" method to test all doctrine and tradition to "see IF those things are true"
Acts 17
11 Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see IF these things were so.
Luke 24
27 Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures.
44 Now He said to them, “These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.” 45 Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, 46 and He said to them, “Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day, 47 and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.
And Christ said this - about "Sola Scriptura" testing of church tradition and doctrine.
Mark 7
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
In Isaiah 8:19 we find this "to the Law and to the Testimony if they speak not according to this Word there is no light in them".
There again we have sola scriptura - being taught.
And Paul insists that he and everyone else be tested that same way -
Gal 1:6-9
6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; 7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! 9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!
We can know what had been preached by Paul as of Gal 1... by reading the texts themselves.
Agreed. And these SS texts were true even then -- how much more so WITH the NT!
1 Tim 3:15
14I am writing these things to you, hoping to come to you before long;15but in case I am delayed, I write so that you will know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth.
2 Tim 3:14-16
14 You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;
2 Peter 3
14 Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, 15 and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.
I notice how the oral teaching of the Apostles is rightly called "the Word"
If Sola Scriptura is true, why did the Bereans need the oral Word to understand it?
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