Evidence for or against a creation instituted sabbath

Cribstyl · Mar 4, 2011

Stryder06 said:
Crib, can I ask you something?

That's one reason I'm here, to ask and answer questions.

What do you think the purpose of the sabbath is?

I understand; "REST" it is always accompanied with a 24hr or noted period of time chosen by God, "to do no work" (annual, monthly, 7years); It was given to the Children of Israel after they were brought out of bondage in Egypt as a test to prove them, it was added to the Mosaic covenant and a sign of "what God among all the God's is trully God."
When it became the sign of the covenant made at Sinai, it had a death penalty attached. When the Mosaic convenant was fulfilled by Christ on the cross, we now have a New Covenant based on better promises.

What do you think the bible means when it said God rested?

Rested, rest (shabath v) is not day of rest (shabbath n) The fact that "rest" is a verb does have some rule about it's uses. "Rest" and "Rested" in Gen 2:2 and 2:3 does not imply how long God rested or a 24hr time period.

Gen 2:2And on the seventh 7637 day 3117 God 430 ended 3615 his work 4399 which he had made 6213 ; and he rested 7673 on the seventh 7637 day 3117 from all his work 4399 which he had made 6213 .

Gen 2:3And God 430 blessed 1288 the seventh 7637 day 3117, and sanctified 6942 it: because 3588 that in it he had rested 7673 from all his work 4399 which God 430 created 1254 and made 6213 .

To imply rest beyond only the7th day is to imply that God did not end or finish His work in 6days.

"rested 7673 is shabath (v) is sometime used in conjunction with "the sabbath"7676 but the word rest does not directly reference a 24hr. for example( the rest of the Holy Sabbath)

...............................................................................................................................

When the 4th commandment explains why to "keep the sabbath day Holy".......
The word that denotes God rested in EX20:11 is rested5117 is "nuwach".
Nuwach is never used in conjunction with the word sabbath in the bible.

So it reenforces the fact that God did not "sabbath", He rested.

Exd 20:11For [in] six8337 days3117 the LORD3068 made6213 heaven8064 and earth776, the sea3220, and all that in them [is], and rested5117 the seventh7637 day3117: wherefore the LORD3068 blessed1288 the sabbath7676 day3117, and hallowed6942 it.

(Could be confusing) but try me..

Cribstyl · Mar 4, 2011

Stryder06 said:
Not to but in but,

In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou [art], and unto dust shalt thou return

That's bible truth .....but that not the whole story.

So, if you're only going to tell half of the story....It looks like I'm going to get some folks upset with me as usual.

Job 34:14 If he set his heart upon man, [if] he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;
Job 34:15 All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust.

Psa 104:29Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.

Psa 146:4His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Ecc 12:7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Isa 2:22Cease ye from man, whose breath [is] in his nostrils: for wherein is he to be accounted of?

Luk 23:46And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Act 7:59And they stoned Stephen, calling upon [God], and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Act 7:60And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

Stephen and Jesus are the only examples we have of a pre death post death scenario. It was given to understand that the spirit of the man does not stay in the grave with the body.

Jam 2:26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

The fact to consider is, trees have souls, (life), they die in time.

The fact is, animal have souls. God spoke them into being too. God created them eventually for food and for our dominion on earth, they dont come back from the dead they wont be judged.

I dont expect anyone to believe what I'm saying, but just as I take time to read and understand what you're saying we can understand some of what we keep repeating to each other.

Cribstyl · Mar 4, 2011

Hopefully someone will try to give me some answers about some EVIDENCE of what God commanded before Sinai,....

(later)

Stewartnz · Mar 4, 2011

Cribstyl said:
Hopefully someone will try to give me some answers about some EVIDENCE of what God commanded before Sinai,....

(later)

Is the record of Noah's preparation for the flood an example of Bible evidence, Crib?

God commanded Noah,

"Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.
Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female; to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth... And Noah did according unto all that the LORD commanded him."
(Genesis 7:2-5)

Noah did as the Lord had commanded him, in receiving those animals into the Ark.

If Noah intelligently, knowingly, distinguished between the clean and unclean animals, how did he know how to differentiate?

Again, if Noah knew what he was doing, how could he know, if the rules for distinguishing between the clean and unclean animals did not exist prior to Sinai? (Lev 11)

It is clear that there were, in pre-flood days, clean and unclean animals.
"And Noah did according unto all that the LORD commanded him..."
_____________

And prior to Sinai,

"...Abraham obeyed My voice, and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws." (Gen 26:5)

David Conklin · Mar 5, 2011

>Hopefully someone will try to give me some answers about some EVIDENCE of what God commanded before Sinai,....

KJV Genesis 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

God must have told them beforehand what sin was, otherwise they'd be without a clue and be asking what it was.

Stryder06 · Mar 7, 2011

Cribstyl said:
That's bible truth .....but that not the whole story.

So, if you're only going to tell half of the story....It looks like I'm going to get some folks upset with me as usual.

Job 34:14 If he set his heart upon man, [if] he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;
Job 34:15 All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust.

Psa 104:29Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.

Psa 146:4His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Ecc 12:7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Isa 2:22Cease ye from man, whose breath [is] in his nostrils: for wherein is he to be accounted of?

Luk 23:46And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Act 7:59And they stoned Stephen, calling upon [God], and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Act 7:60And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

Stephen and Jesus are the only examples we have of a pre death post death scenario. It was given to understand that the spirit of the man does not stay in the grave with the body.

Jam 2:26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

The fact to consider is, trees have souls, (life), they die in time.

The fact is, animal have souls. God spoke them into being too. God created them eventually for food and for our dominion on earth, they dont come back from the dead they wont be judged.

I dont expect anyone to believe what I'm saying, but just as I take time to read and understand what you're saying we can understand some of what we keep repeating to each other.

The verses you provided agree with what I said. Man came from the dust of the earth. That's the only point I was trying to make. You didn't tell the rest of the story, you simply elaborated, which is cool.

Stryder06 · Mar 7, 2011

Cribstyl said:
That's one reason I'm here, to ask and answer questions.
I understand; "REST" it is always accompanied with a 24hr or noted period of time chosen by God, "to do no work" (annual, monthly, 7years); It was given to the Children of Israel after they were brought out of bondage in Egypt as a test to prove them, it was added to the Mosaic covenant and a sign of "what God among all the God's is trully God."
When it became the sign of the covenant made at Sinai, it had a death penalty attached. When the Mosaic convenant was fulfilled by Christ on the cross, we now have a New Covenant based on better promises.

Ok.

Rested, rest (shabath v) is not day of rest (shabbath n) The fact that "rest" is a verb does have some rule about it's uses. "Rest" and "Rested" in Gen 2:2 and 2:3 does not imply how long God rested or a 24hr time period.

Gen 2:2And on the seventh 7637 day 3117 God 430 ended 3615 his work 4399 which he had made 6213 ; and he rested 7673 on the seventh 7637 day 3117 from all his work 4399 which he had made 6213 .

Gen 2:3And God 430 blessed 1288 the seventh 7637 day 3117, and sanctified 6942 it: because 3588 that in it he had rested 7673 from all his work 4399 which God 430 created 1254 and made 6213 .

To imply rest beyond only the7th day is to imply that God did not end or finish His work in 6days.

"rested 7673 is shabath (v) is sometime used in conjunction with "the sabbath"7676 but the word rest does not directly reference a 24hr. for example( the rest of the Holy Sabbath)

Ok

When the 4th commandment explains why to "keep the sabbath day Holy".......
The word that denotes God rested in EX20:11 is rested5117 is "nuwach".
Nuwach is never used in conjunction with the word sabbath in the bible.

So it reenforces the fact that God did not "sabbath", He rested.

Exd 20:11For [in] six8337 days3117 the LORD3068 made6213 heaven8064 and earth776, the sea3220, and all that in them [is], and rested5117 the seventh7637 day3117: wherefore the LORD3068 blessed1288 the sabbath7676 day3117, and hallowed6942 it.

(Could be confusing) but try me..

Yeah, I'm very confused because I didn't see a single answer to my question.

Cribstyl · Mar 7, 2011

When the space shuttle is up there, I'm kinda busy. But I will respond when I can focus on these posts.

EastCoastRemnant · Mar 7, 2011

Cribstyl said:
When the space shuttle is up there, I'm kinda busy. But I will respond when I can focus on these posts.

You steerin' the thing remotely from your desktop?

Stryder06 · Mar 8, 2011

Cribstyl said:
The fact to consider is, trees have souls, (life), they die in time.

The fact is, animal have souls. God spoke them into being too. God created them eventually for food and for our dominion on earth, they dont come back from the dead they wont be judged.

I dont expect anyone to believe what I'm saying, but just as I take time to read and understand what you're saying we can understand some of what we keep repeating to each other.

Let's clear some things up:

Trees and animals don't have souls. Soul does not = life. A soul is the combination of the breath of God and the dust of the ground. Scripture says man became a living soul, not that man received a soul and lived.

God didn't create animals to be food but to be companions of sorts (for lack of a better phrase).

EastCoastRemnant · Mar 8, 2011

Stryder06 said:
Let's clear some things up:

Trees and animals don't have souls. Soul does not = life. A soul is the combination of the breath of God and the dust of the ground. Scripture says man became a living soul, not that man received a soul and lived.

Such a simple concept that God clearly outlined for us... it's amazing how people want to believe Satans lie that 'you shall not surely die'.

Stewartnz · Mar 8, 2011

Stryder06 said:
Let's clear some things up:

Trees and animals don't have souls. Soul does not = life. A soul is the combination of the breath of God and the dust of the ground. Scripture says man became a living soul, not that man received a soul and lived.

A question comes to mind on this point.

Of the second plague it is said that "every living soul died in the sea" (Rev 16:3). I have understood the phrase "every living soul" to apply to the animals living in the sea; that everything in the sea died. (I do not believe that this plague is universal, as far as extent goes, but certainly a large section of the oceans will no longer support life.)

But in this instance, I have understood that "every living soul" = every animal.

Stryder06 · Mar 8, 2011

Stewartnz said:
A question comes to mind on this point.

Of the second plague it is said that "every living soul died in the sea" (Rev 16:3). I have understood the phrase "every living soul" to apply to the animals living in the sea; that everything in the sea died. (I do not believe that this plague is universal, as far as extent goes, but certainly a large section of the oceans will no longer support life.)

But in this instance, I have understood that "every living soul" = every animal.

Yeah, that's correct. I was just trying to clear up a point that creatures don't have souls, and honstly I forgot that Revelation called the creatures in the sea "souls". The point I was driving at is that God created us 1 part dust 1 part breath which = a soul. Animals being called a soul is for the sake of identifying the living creatures in the waters.

visionary · Mar 8, 2011

As Yeshua said.... Matthew 19:7-9 (New International Version, ©2011)

7 Why then, they asked, did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?

8 Jesus replied, Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.

Yeshua would not have brought up Adam and Eve's relationship under the conversation of divorce unless they were married to start with...

Cribstyl · Mar 9, 2011

visionary said:
As Yeshua said.... Matthew 19:7-9 (New International Version, ©2011)

7 Why then, they asked, did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?

8 Jesus replied, Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.

Yeshua would not have brought up Adam and Eve's relationship under the conversation of divorce unless they were married to start with...

Thank you Viz... The argument being made is that marriage is not clearly instituted in creation. It's shamefully presented because the case to establish sabbath institution does not have as much as 1verse to establish it given at that time.

Stryder and others are using deductive reasoning to say that marriage institiution stands on the same grounds as sabbath institution.

Cribstyl · Mar 9, 2011

Stewartnz said:
A question comes to mind on this point.

Of the second plague it is said that "every living soul died in the sea" (Rev 16:3). I have understood the phrase "every living soul" to apply to the animals living in the sea; that everything in the sea died. (I do not believe that this plague is universal, as far as extent goes, but certainly a large section of the oceans will no longer support life.)

But in this instance, I have understood that "every living soul" = every animal.

Rev 16:3¶And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead [man]: and every living soul died in the sea.

Respectfully Stewartnz

The text says "every living soul"...not a large section of.......
"Every living soul" appear to refur to everything that has life, and lives in the sea.
"

Job 12:10In whose hand [is] the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind.
1. This text proves that every living thing has a soul. True or False?

2This text also reenforces the fact that man has a soul and the breath of God.() (is the breathe that goes bact to God at death of every man)

.............................................................................................
Scriptures reenforce that animals are more that flesh and blood.
NKJV - Ecc 3:21 -Who knows the spirit of the sons of men, which goes upward, and the spirit of the animal, which goes down to the earth? Footnote:
* Septuagint, Syriac, Targum, and Vulgate read Who knows whether the spirit . . . goes upward, and whether . . . goes downward to the earth?

These texts reenforce the undeniable fact that at death, only the flesh and blood of a man goes back to the dust.

Cribstyl · Mar 9, 2011

Stryder06 said:
The verses you provided agree with what I said. Man came from the dust of the earth. That's the only point I was trying to make. You didn't tell the rest of the story, you simply elaborated, which is cool.

Most of those text spoke about the spirit going back to God....You've never made references to that given understanding.

Cribstyl · Mar 10, 2011

David Conklin said:
>

crib said:

Hopefully someone will try to give me some answers about some EVIDENCE of what God commanded before Sinai,....

Click to expand...

KJV Genesis 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

God must have told them beforehand what sin was, otherwise they'd be without a clue and be asking what it was.

Respectfully Mr Conklin
if I'm not mistaken, you've posted EVIDENCE of what God was explaining to Cain about his gift.
God also explained how sin was wanting to come out and rule him...

This was the first time the word SIN was used in the bible.

James also explained how "sin come out" of a man......
Jam 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jam 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

David Conklin · Mar 12, 2011

>This was the first time the word SIN was used in the bible.

Correct. Note that Cain didn't have to ask what "sin" was--if it was a new word to him he would have done so.

Stryder06 · Mar 14, 2011

Cribstyl said:
Most of those text spoke about the spirit going back to God....You've never made references to that given understanding.

The spirit (breath) came from God and at death it goes back to Him. That's all.

Man received the breath of God at creation and became a living sould. God then told man at his fall that he came from the dust and would go back to the dust. Since man is one part dust, one part breath of God, the two parts seperate at death and go back to where they came from.

Evidence for or against a creation instituted sabbath

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