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Everyday Atheists defend themselves

jamielindas

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I do not hate the Bible, Jesus or Christians.
There are really wonderful things to be learned from what the bible has to say and the fact that I think the book is neither divinely inspired nor historically accurate does not take away from this. Additionally, so much of history and literature has been influenced by the bible that not being familiar with its contents, themes, and moral lessons is an intellectual crime.

I may not think that Jesus was a real person (possibly a conglomeration of period philosophers), but that doesn't change the moral lessons in the gospels. There are some wonderful things about turning the other cheek, loving and forgiving one another unconditionally (even loving your enemies!). If everyone embraced these basic moral tenets the world would be a much better place. I'm not an advocate of vengeance or violence, so most of the teachings of Jesus are things I can agree with. The writings of Paul of Tarsus, on the other hand, (not to mention much of the Old Testament) makes little sense to me and I find the frequent contradictions and strange laws intended to protect and preserve a Bronze Age minority from a hostile world a little disconcerting and mostly inapplicable to a modern world.

To categorically hate an entire group of people based on how they wish to define and affiliate themselves is silly. For the most part, Christians are lovely people with decent morals and a great deal of love and compassion for the rest of humanity. However, Fundamentalists and Biblical literalists are very frustrating to me. Denial of hundreds of years of scientific discovery and a lack of acknowledgment of literary context are also intellectual crimes.


I do not eat babies, perform ritual sacrifice, or worship Satan

I know this sounds stupid, and it is, but so many people online seem to think that atheists are demonic and spend their days spreading evil over the world. If I were to spread anything, it would be skepticism and a general sense of self exploration. I cannot imagine going through life without understanding or at least putting sincere effort into understanding yourself and the world you live in and putting that understanding up against objective scrutiny.


I don't worship nature, Darwin or evolution
I am in awe of the natural world. Learning about chemistry and molecular interactions made me appreciate how complex this world really is. Learning about the math and physics of chemistry, about quantum mechanics, made me realize how limited the human experience can be when there is so much going on at a level that we cannot perceive on an every day basis. The beautiful simplicity of Maxwell's equations left me in awe and wonder when I first learned of them. The grand scale and energy of cosmic activity made me realize how small, weak, and out of control (not to mention arrogant) the human race is in comparison to the rest of the universe. I'm fairly certain that this does not constitute worship. No alters, no praying. I do not pray to chemistry, physics, or the cosmos. I do not ask for their favor or fortune. I do not give human characteristics to the electron or the black hole. I do not request or expect the laws of natural to bend towards a certain outcome for my benefit. This is illogical, and frankly, kind of arrogant. The natural world will behave as it always has and any wishing on my part is futile.

Darwin was a good scientist and made a significant contribution to the field with his observations and conclusions. He was NOT the first to suggest the process of evolution, by which I mean natural selection and mutation. There were others before him. However, his observations and conclusions were so numerous and solid, that it pushed the field in a directly it was previously unwilling to go. He made mistakes, mostly related to a few assumptions he made. All scientists make mistakes and the field has corrected them since. With the advent of genetics, the evidence for evolution is overwhelming and there is very little controversy over its truth in the field. It is well supported by the facts. However, there are holes and things we don't understand yet. Every field has them and scientists actively work to fill those holes in evidence and understanding with objective reasoning and facts. When scientists made assumptions, they usually make them known so that others in the field can take that into account when furthering the study. The process of peer review and analysis is solid and thanks to it, we have the wealth of technical, physical, and medical knowledge that we have today.


Faith and trust are two different things.

I have very little faith. I value logic, reason, and evidence. I'm an empiricist and as such, I need a reason to believe what I believe. I do not believe in things without evidence or facts to support those beliefs. This is not faith. I've heard people respond "You have faith all the time. You have faith in an airplane pilot every time you get on a plan that he's not going to crash." This is not faith. This is trust that is based on experience and knowledge. Airlines prefer their pilots be certified and licensed. I trust that the airlines and the airports wish to protect themselves and their business by doing so. I trust in the process of training, certification and licensing. Its how a large society ensures its own safety without every member of society having to check on every other member of society before taking any risks. Getting into a small plane with someone who has never flown before would be faith. I would not do this.


The intended separation of church and state is real.

Has anyone else been paying attention to the conflict in the middle east? Many of these bitter enemies there are all of the same overall belief system (read; religion). These are rival groups trying to kill each other over the exact interpretation of the same religious text. Anyone remember why many of the colonists left Europe? They were Christians, being forced by other Christians to conform to a certain method of worship. These were people of the same religion oppressing its fellow believers and having the support if the government to do so. Some of the framers of the Constitution of the United States were Christians and some were Deists. However, the did all agree that government should stay out of the religion business. They believed that every person has the right to define their own morals and relationship with their creator. They had see people being jailed for being of a certain Christian denomination. They had seen taxes collected by local governments to support a single denomination at the expense of others. They knew what government entanglement in religion looked like and how it damaged both government and religion. The values, principles and rights that guided the creation of this country founded on were Christian... and Greek, and Roman, etc. The founders all had excellent educations in history, government and philosophy. They wanted to take the best features from an array of cultural style and thought to create an enduring government. Codifying religion into that government was not the plan.

It is true that the words 'separation of church and state' are not in the constitution, but if you've ever read any of the writings of Jefferson or Madison, you will learn that this concept was central to the government they envisioned. Many of the original founders resisted, but the persuasive arguments of these two (and Franklin to a lesser extent) convinced the other founders that everyone should be free to worship (or not!) as they see fit and the government should not interfere while actively protecting the that right. This is what they all came to believe a truly free society would look like.


If you don't believe in God, or an afterlife, what gives your life meaning?
(this is one of the more insulting questions, so I'll allow my friend to guest respond)
Out of all of the questions proposed above, I find this one the most troubling. Not because I cannot answer it with certainty or conviction, but because rational, thoughtful people seem to often fall victim to this thought. Believing that atheists are demonic baby-eaters is a ridiculous, fear mongering tactic of narrow minded individuals that are easily disproved by the daily activities of atheists that in no way involve demonic activity or the consumption of children. Somehow, it is more difficult to comprehend that any person with a grasp on life would have to doubt my ability to find great meaning and worth in my existence without the presence of a superior being.

I do not take fault with anyone finding their own meaning in faith, in religion, or in God. We are all cognizant of the comfort, security, and inspiration that many find in their church or belief system. We each search and discover meaning in our own way. When I openly declared myself as an atheist, it was as though the world shone brighter- that works of art, vistas and panoramas of beauty, acts of astounding kindness and generosity, the love that binds family and friends all became more meaningful and more profound because they are the products of our own efforts. You need not believe in God to appreciate the deep value of that which is before you. I find that in removing the supernatural we become responsible for the great acts of humanity, though we must also accept responsibilities for the atrocities we commit. There is meaning to be found in owning complete responsibility for the actions I make, the thoughts I have, the goals I accomplish, for the passions I discover.

My friend finds wonder and awe in the chaotic order of the natural world, even down to the submicroscopic. He finds pleasure and validation in logic and empiricism. That which calls to the most essential and paramount in me is quite different—I never feel more tied to life, to nature, and to the community of man than when I behold that which I conceive to be beautiful. While my friend finds meaning in the products of the mind, I seek always to stir my senses, to feed to my aesthetic self--- and for all these disparities in our worldviews, we still are most deeply touched by the complex, yet basic, feelings we have for our families. We experience all of this without belief in a Creator. Finally, the issue of the afterlife… I understand why a believer might question why I do not believe in a life after death. Death can be quite scary and damned unfair. However, my lack of belief in Heaven (or Hell), gives me an even greater appreciation for the time I am alive and well and walking on this Earth. There good that I do is for the here and now. I had better love, work, and play to the best of my ability because when I am dead all that remains will be the memories of those who once knew me.
 
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keith99

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this guy doesn't speak for all of us. specifically, he doesn't speak for those of us who do eat babies

Actually I didn't know is I should laugh or cry when I read the lien about eating babies and ritual sacrifice. Oh not that jamielindas wrote it, but that some believe it. OK perhaps eating babies (and I have to assume Irish ones) but ritual sacrifice! To what? But then many don;t seem to havbe the slightest idea of what athiesm really means, they just have some vague image of not like me, bad.
 
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jamielindas

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Actually I didn't know is I should laugh or cry when I read the lien about eating babies and ritual sacrifice. Oh not that jamielindas wrote it, but that some believe it. OK perhaps eating babies (and I have to assume Irish ones) but ritual sacrifice! To what? But then many don;t seem to havbe the slightest idea of what athiesm really means, they just have some vague image of not like me, bad.

I know! that's why I thought I'd address it!
People seem to think that we're monsters and that only crazy demonic/satanic activity could result from a life without religion or a god.

That's why I really wanted to put it out there and actually begin to build a better imagine, or at least a more accurate one.
 
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Maxwell511

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this guy doesn't speak for all of us. specifically, he doesn't speak for those of us who do eat babies

From watching gerbils, I believe that is how nature intended it. It is only immoral to eat babies if you apply some sort of seasoning or sauce.
 
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jayem

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From watching gerbils, I believe that is how nature intended it. It is only immoral to eat babies if you apply some sort of seasoning or sauce.


And remember, the liver must be served with some fava beans and a nice Chianti. (slurp, slurp)

The OP mentions the faith/trust issue. I have a question. I don't consider myself primarily an atheist. I'm a naturalist. I believe that everything in the universe is a function of matter, energy, and their natural properties. So that makes me an atheist (at least as regards any supernatural gods) by logical extension. The basis for my naturalism is inductive logic. Everything that was once thought mystical or inexplicable, but which we now understand, has been clearly shown to be a purely natural phenomenon. In the entire history of human knowledge, a supernatural explanation has never proven valid for anything. So, by induction, I believe everything is a natural process. Of course, I recognize the limitation of induction. I can't prove with absolute certainty that some supernatural event or phenomenon may not yet occur at some time or some place. I think it's extraordinarily unlikely, but just because it's never been definitively documented in the past doesn't absolutely rule it out. So this is my question: would belief grounded on inductive, a posteriori reasoning be considered faith or trust? And does it even matter?
 
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selfinflikted

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this guy doesn't speak for all of us. specifically, he doesn't speak for those of us who do eat babies

Funny, but so true. I personally can't stand these kind of posts. The ONLY thing one atheist will have in common with another for sure, is that we don't believe gods exists. That's it. I'd rather not have any atheists speak for me.
 
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jamielindas

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Funny, but so true. I personally can't stand these kind of posts. The ONLY thing one atheist will have in common with another for sure, is that we don't believe gods exists. That's it. I'd rather not have any atheists speak for me.

I apologize, did I ever imply that i was speaking for all atheists? I think I tried to speak in the first person singular, as did my friend.
 
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jamielindas

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And remember, the liver must be served with some fava beans and a nice Chianti. (slurp, slurp)

The OP mentions the faith/trust issue. I have a question. I don't consider myself primarily an atheist. I'm a naturalist. I believe that everything in the universe is a function of matter, energy, and their natural properties. So that makes me an atheist (at least as regards any supernatural gods) by logical extension. The basis for my naturalism is inductive logic. Everything that was once thought mystical or inexplicable, but which we now understand, has been clearly shown to be a purely natural phenomenon. In the entire history of human knowledge, a supernatural explanation has never proven valid for anything. So, by induction, I believe everything is a natural process. Of course, I recognize the limitation of induction. I can't prove with absolute certainty that some supernatural event or phenomenon may not yet occur at some time or some place. I think it's extraordinarily unlikely, but just because it's never been definitively documented in the past doesn't absolutely rule it out. So this is my question: would belief grounded on inductive, a posteriori reasoning be considered faith or trust? And does it even matter?


I think this would still be considered atheism and I would call it trust, not faith. Faith, as so many seem to remind me, is belief in something without proof or reason (or unconfirmed and subjective proof or reasons). It sounds as though you are making a reasonable assumption based on existing evidence/knowledge.
However, just my opinion. You can self identify any way you like.

and

You are absolutely right that there is no way to truly prove there is no supernatural being/deity or that no supernatural event will ever happen. I think most atheists who come to their non-belief by means of logic or induction recognize this. We (oh no, speaking for other atheists!) have come to our non-belief based on experience and knowledge of the past and come to a conclusion we believe is reasonable based on this support. It's not an absolute and I don't know any atheists who treat it as such. That kind of hard core atheism is probably just as damaging as fundamentalism.
(this is probably a good time for Pascal's wager discussion)
 
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jamielindas

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All one needs to do is place oneself in GOD's hands. Something that doesn't exist cannot direct anything -------- but if purpose, direction and meaning comes about, then, well obviously GOD has proven HE exists.


See... that was kind of the point...
and probably the only common trait between atheists... we don't think that it has been proven that He exists.
 
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selfinflikted

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I apologize, did I ever imply that i was speaking for all atheists? I think I tried to speak in the first person singular, as did my friend.

You didn't, and you did :)

All one needs to do is place oneself in GOD's hands. Something that doesn't exist cannot direct anything -------- but if purpose, direction and meaning comes about, then, well obviously GOD has proven HE exists.

No, that proves nothing. Purpose, direction, and meaning are completely independant of a god(s).
 
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PetersKeys

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I know! that's why I thought I'd address it!
People seem to think that we're monsters and that only crazy demonic/satanic activity could result from a life without religion or a god.

That's why I really wanted to put it out there and actually begin to build a better imagine, or at least a more accurate one.


Satan works in alot more suddle ways. If u think its just pentagrams, then he has already deceieved you. Satan loves the middle lukewarm ground.
 
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jamielindas

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Satan works in alot more suddle ways. If u think its just pentagrams, then he has already deceieved you. Satan loves the middle lukewarm ground.

Alas, the spelling errors of your post weaken your point significantly...
 
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LittleNipper

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You didn't, and you did :)



No, that proves nothing. Purpose, direction, and meaning are completely independant of a god(s).

Sorry, I do not believe in coincidence or luck. I believe in GOD. Nothing is independent of GOD.
 
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jamielindas

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Sorry, I do not believe in coincidence or luck. I believe in GOD. Nothing is independent of GOD.

You may believe whatever you wish. The intention was never to change your belief.
The intention was to clear up some misconceptions by giving some folks the honest thoughts from a couple non-believers.
 
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selfinflikted

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Satan works in alot more suddle ways. If u think its just pentagrams, then he has already deceieved you. Satan loves the middle lukewarm ground.

I usually leave the grammar and spelling policing to Cantata (love ya!), but I feel compelled to correct you here.

The password is...

"Subtle"
 
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selfinflikted

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Sorry, I do not believe in coincidence or luck. I believe in GOD. Nothing is independent of GOD.

So yeah.. when something good happens to you, you believe it's an act of god, or some kind of blessing. When something goes awry, it's the devil. I know, I know. You're the epitome of confirmation bias.
 
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