Log in
Register
Search
Search titles only
By:
Search titles only
By:
Forums
New posts
Forum list
Search forums
Leaderboards
Games
Our Blog
Blogs
New entries
New comments
Blog list
Search blogs
Credits
Transactions
Shop
Blessings: ✟0.00
Tickets
Open new ticket
Watched
Donate
Log in
Register
Search
Search titles only
By:
Search titles only
By:
More options
Toggle width
Share this page
Share this page
Share
Reddit
Pinterest
Tumblr
WhatsApp
Email
Share
Link
Menu
Install the app
Install
Forums
Discussion and Debate
Discussion and Debate
Physical & Life Sciences
Creation & Evolution
Ever the Expert
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Aron-Ra" data-source="post: 10884297" data-attributes="member: 76277"><p>The epic which documents his life is usually dated to 2,000 BCE, (if not 2500 BCE) and the Sumerian King List shows that he ruled Babylon in the 27th Century BCE. I doubt you've found any document older than this. In all of human history, Gilgamesh is still the earliest individual who is known by both name and deeds in any documentation which can be externally validated.</p><p>That is not possible, especially if one assumes that Genesis were really true, in which case, the importance subsequently attached to the details of this tale could not have all been forgot in the rewrite, but must never have been included yet.</p><p> </p><p>I wanted to compare notes with Gluadys, who seems to have done some homework in this area too, just to see what she thought of your allegation here:</p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="color: blue"><em>"The earliest reference I have heard of are Egyptian references to the 'Apiru' which are consistent with the 1850ff date for Abraham & his family. The eponymous ancestor of the Hebrews is Eber who is listed in the post-flood genealogy of Shem. But as is the case with any eponymous ancestor, there is no evidence he actually existed.</em></span></span></p><p><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><em>While there are references to Hebrew/Apiru in Egyptian and Middle East records there are no references to specific people---not even Joseph who was supposedly governor of all Egypt at one time. So there are no references that I know of to Abraham. It would be a major archeological coup to come up with one. </em></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><em>The biblical picture of Abraham and his family as wandering nomads who lived beside the civilizations of Canaan, Egypt, and Mesopotamia is consistent with an archeological record that has all of these pre-dating Abraham. <strong>So no way any part of the bible pre-dates Gilgamesh. </strong></em></span></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"></span><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><em>Tradition has it that <strong>Moses</strong> was the first to write any part of the bible. And scholarship has shown that he <strong>wrote no part of the Torah as we know it.</strong> The earliest writing in the bible is post-Solomon. Except possibly, for some actual Psalms by David. </em></span></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><em>Prior to Solomon there was very little written in Hebrew and none of it made it intact into the bible. But there are references to older works such as The Book of Jasher, The Book of the Wars of Yahweh, various collections of proverbs, etc.</em></span></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><em>But anything in the bible dates no earlier than the reign of Solomon and most of it is no earlier than the 8th century. The Torah as we know it went through its final revision during the Babylonian exile and some suggest that Ezra was the final redactor. </em></span></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><em>The compilations of the Prophets (which in Jewish classification includes the "historical" books) and of the Writings (Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Job, Daniel, Ruth, Esther and Song of Solomon) came later.</em></span></span></span></p><p>Only the most important parts, which is all that matters here. None of the miracles in the Bible were originally attributed to God, including the parting of the Red Sea. That was once said to be the work of a mere wizard.</p><p>So you're really supporting my position; that the Hebrew religion emerged from a predominantly polytheist society by the practice of a very few initial believers. I have always believed the very beginning of that separation was some time in the 18th Century BCE, and that it didn't become a national identity until (and because of) Moses.</p><p>How about the fact that they've changed so much over the years? </p><p>Welcome back to the double-standard. You just assume that all the other religions not only could but did get distorted beyond recognition, practically overnight, even in their written form. But the Hebrew religion can't change even a little bit after ten times as long and in constant retellings of stories that weren't even written down. But unlike any part of the Bible (when taken literally) we actually have substantial <a href="http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_30-4-2003_pg9_1" target="_blank"><span style="color: #f07005"><u>archaeology </u></span></a>to back Gilgamesh.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Aron-Ra, post: 10884297, member: 76277"] The epic which documents his life is usually dated to 2,000 BCE, (if not 2500 BCE) and the Sumerian King List shows that he ruled Babylon in the 27th Century BCE. I doubt you've found any document older than this. In all of human history, Gilgamesh is still the earliest individual who is known by both name and deeds in any documentation which can be externally validated. That is not possible, especially if one assumes that Genesis were really true, in which case, the importance subsequently attached to the details of this tale could not have all been forgot in the rewrite, but must never have been included yet. I wanted to compare notes with Gluadys, who seems to have done some homework in this area too, just to see what she thought of your allegation here: [font=Arial][color=blue][i]"The earliest reference I have heard of are Egyptian references to the 'Apiru' which are consistent with the 1850ff date for Abraham & his family. The eponymous ancestor of the Hebrews is Eber who is listed in the post-flood genealogy of Shem. But as is the case with any eponymous ancestor, there is no evidence he actually existed.[/i][/color][/font] [color=blue][font=Arial][i]While there are references to Hebrew/Apiru in Egyptian and Middle East records there are no references to specific people---not even Joseph who was supposedly governor of all Egypt at one time. So there are no references that I know of to Abraham. It would be a major archeological coup to come up with one. [/i][/font][/color] [font=Arial][color=blue][font=Arial][i]The biblical picture of Abraham and his family as wandering nomads who lived beside the civilizations of Canaan, Egypt, and Mesopotamia is consistent with an archeological record that has all of these pre-dating Abraham. [b]So no way any part of the bible pre-dates Gilgamesh. [/b][/i] [/font][font=Arial][i]Tradition has it that [b]Moses[/b] was the first to write any part of the bible. And scholarship has shown that he [b]wrote no part of the Torah as we know it.[/b] The earliest writing in the bible is post-Solomon. Except possibly, for some actual Psalms by David. [/i][/font] [font=Arial][i]Prior to Solomon there was very little written in Hebrew and none of it made it intact into the bible. But there are references to older works such as The Book of Jasher, The Book of the Wars of Yahweh, various collections of proverbs, etc.[/i][/font] [font=Arial][i]But anything in the bible dates no earlier than the reign of Solomon and most of it is no earlier than the 8th century. The Torah as we know it went through its final revision during the Babylonian exile and some suggest that Ezra was the final redactor. [/i] [i]The compilations of the Prophets (which in Jewish classification includes the "historical" books) and of the Writings (Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Job, Daniel, Ruth, Esther and Song of Solomon) came later.[/i][/font][/color][/font] Only the most important parts, which is all that matters here. None of the miracles in the Bible were originally attributed to God, including the parting of the Red Sea. That was once said to be the work of a mere wizard. So you're really supporting my position; that the Hebrew religion emerged from a predominantly polytheist society by the practice of a very few initial believers. I have always believed the very beginning of that separation was some time in the 18th Century BCE, and that it didn't become a national identity until (and because of) Moses. How about the fact that they've changed so much over the years? Welcome back to the double-standard. You just assume that all the other religions not only could but did get distorted beyond recognition, practically overnight, even in their written form. But the Hebrew religion can't change even a little bit after ten times as long and in constant retellings of stories that weren't even written down. But unlike any part of the Bible (when taken literally) we actually have substantial [url="http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_30-4-2003_pg9_1"][color=#f07005][u]archaeology [/u][/color][/url]to back Gilgamesh. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Forums
Discussion and Debate
Discussion and Debate
Physical & Life Sciences
Creation & Evolution
Ever the Expert
Top
Bottom