Euthyphro's Dilemma

[Nooj]

Thanks to the search feature (may we always bask in its presence, some forums I've gone to don't have it), I've found out that the last thread to broach this topic was earlier this year. I feel it's safe to ask again:

Is what is moral commanded by God because it is moral?

Or is it moral because it is commanded by God?

 

[PantsMcFist]

Well, the Christian theodicy for this one is that God is manifest goodness, so everything good is what God commands.

The Muslim theodicy would say that everything is God's will, so we need not worry about it as long as we follow the Quran.

The Hindu theodicy would say that good, like all of existence is illusory, but we must still treat others well in order to balance our karma and transcend to the ultimate oneness.

From a rationalist perspective, I would say the question is a false dichotomy. Just because there was only to given solutions in the dilemma doesn't mean there isn't a third one.

Having said that, it's a fun question.

 

[Nooj]

The Hindu theodicy would say that good, like all of existence is illusory, but we must still treat others well in order to balance our karma and transcend to the ultimate oneness.

AFAIK, Hindus believe in a concept called dharma that stands apart from the Gods. That's why the Gods feel the adverse effects of karma when they go against the dharma. Sounds familiar to the issue at the heart of the Dilemma, no?

 

[PantsMcFist]

AFAIK, Hindus believe in a concept called dharma that stands apart from the Gods. That's why the Gods feel the adverse effects of karma when they go against the dharma. Sounds familiar to the issue at the heart of the Dilemma, no?

Hmm, my understanding of the Hindu faith was that all the 'gods' were elements of the ultimate oneness, or characteristics which they worship separately.

 

[TeddyKGB]

Well, the Christian theodicy for this one is that God is manifest goodness, so everything good is what God commands.

Do you believe this theodicy escapes the dilemma? If so, how?

 

[PantsMcFist]

Do you believe this theodicy escapes the dilemma? If so, how?

I don't know if it truly escapes. It seems intellectually dishonest to make it that simple, but if God exists in the Christian sense, then God IS manifest goodness, and everything good is Godly, and everything not good is not of God. Also, this sense allows an appeal to objective standards of good and evil, which does appeal to me.

 

[TeddyKGB]

I don't know if it truly escapes. It seems intellectually dishonest to make it that simple, but if God exists in the Christian sense, then God IS manifest goodness, and everything good is Godly, and everything not good is not of God. Also, this sense allows an appeal to objective standards of good and evil, which does appeal to me.

The phrase "God is manifest goodness" is a fine example of something that looks pretty but ultimately has no meaning. When I say, "X is good," I do not mean, "X is God"; I suspect very few people do. Theologies that simply declare God equivalent to adjectives or abstractions - God is goodness, God is love - are shallow and flimsy.

 

[Nooj]

From a rationalist perspective, I would say the question is a false dichotomy. Just because there was only to given solutions in the dilemma doesn't mean there isn't a third one.

I'd be happy to hear of a third solution.

 

[cantata]

I'd be happy to hear of a third solution.

There is no objective standard of morality?

 

[Nooj]

There is no objective standard of morality?

I didn't expect that, but of course you're right. That's what I believe too. There's no reason to work within the boundaries of the dilemma.

But uh, working within the assumption that there is an objective standard of morality, does it exist apart from God or does God establish morality? That's what I meant...

 

[wanderingone]

I didn't expect that, but of course you're right. That's what I believe too. There's no reason to work within the boundaries of the dilemma.

But uh, working within the assumption that there is an objective standard of morality, does it exist apart from God or does God establish morality? That's what I meant...

I would say; Morality exists apart from God, and there are standards of morality that are derived from our understanding of God. ("our" being a generalized "our")

 

[Nooj]

I made a mistake here:

But uh, working within the assumption that there is an objective standard of morality, does it exist apart from God or does God establish morality? That's what I meant...

If God establishes morality, morality cannot be objective.

I would say; Morality exists apart from God, and there are standards of morality that are derived from our understanding of God. ("our" being a generalized "our")

Hello wanderingone, that sort of sounds like the idea that God is the intermediary of morality. By that I mean morality is independent of God (e.g. murder is always wrong, and God can't change that) but God can pass that morality onto us either via prophets/revelation. Alternatively, we can find that morality independently.

If you want to, could you expound a little more on your idea?