Eureka!

[Borealis]

Okay, this might not be a revelation to some of you (or many of you at all), but I had to share this.

I was looking for a specific verse in Matthew about how just saying 'I believe in God' isn't going to be enough to get to heaven. I found it; it's 7:21. But, before I got there I found another, more important verse, relating to someone else.

Those who are more experienced at apologetics than I, feel free to dissect this post. But I think it's a valid point.

Okay. As Catholics, one of the primary anti-Catholic arguments we have to listen to is that we worship statues. Bible Christians pull out the whole 'Exodus, no idols, etc.' thing and wave that in our faces, to which we reply that we don't worship the statues, we venerate the people they represent. That explanation washes over them like water off a duck's back, and we're right back where we started.

However, let's take a look at the story of the rich young man who wanted to go to heaven. It's Matthew 19:16-30. The specific part is verses 18-19. Here's the relevant part of the passage:

Now someone approached him and said, "Teacher, what good must I do to gain eternal life?" He answered him, "Why do you ask me about the good? There is only One who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments." He asked him, "Which ones?" And Jesus replied, "You shall not kill; you shall not commit adultery; you shall not steal; you shall not bear false witness; honor your father and mother; and 'you shall love your neighbor as yourself.'"

What's missing from that list? Yep, the idols. Jesus tells him which commandments he must follow to gain eternal life, and doesn't mention the making of idols.

Now, perhaps I'm overly excited, but this is something that's bothered me. I understand the difference between worship and honor, but Protestants don't see that difference, whether wilfully or not. So this might be a better way to explain the church's teachings on statues in the church.

Now, if I can just find something to show them we don't worship Mary...

 

[Christy4Christ]

What about these to show we don't have those Old laws???


2 Corinthians 3: 12-17

Since we have such a hope, we are very bold, not like Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the Israelites might not see the end of the fading splendor. But their minds were hardened; for to this day, when they read the old covenant , that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away . Yes, to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their minds; but when a man turns to the Lord the veil is removed. Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom

Hebrews 8: 5-13
They serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly sanctuary; for when Moses was about to erect the tent, he was instructed by God, saying, "See that you make everything according to the pattern which was shown you on the mountain." But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry which is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion for a second . For he finds fault with them when he says: "The days will come, says the Lord, when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah; not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; for they did not continue in my covenant, and so I paid no heed to them, says the Lord. This is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall not teach every one his fellow or every one his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for all shall know me, from the least of them to the greatest. For I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more." In speaking of a new covenant he treats the first as obsolete . And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

 

[geocajun]

the Catholic Church teaches that we must follow the 10 commandments (Decalogue) as a divine insight into the natural law.

2070 The Ten Commandments belong to God's revelation. At the same time they teach us the true humanity of man. They bring to light the essential duties, and therefore, indirectly, the fundamental rights inherent in the nature of the human person. The Decalogue contains a privileged expression of the natural law: From the beginning, God had implanted in the heart of man the precepts of the natural law. Then he was content to remind him of them. This was the Decalogue.


2067 The Ten Commandments state what is required in the love of God and love of neighbor. The first three concern love of God, and the other seven love of neighbor. As charity comprises the two commandments to which the Lord related the whole Law and the prophets . . . so the Ten Commandments were themselves given on two tablets. Three were written on one tablet and seven on the other.

2068 The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound to keep them;28 the Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments."29

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

How about you show them in the Old Testament how the Jews had a Golden Serpent made that actually had powers from God in it?

Is that idolatry? No. Idolatry means you worship something other than God.

Compare that with the Golden Calf for a difference between making statues and making idols.

 

[Ann M]

When the subject of 'idols' in the Catholic Church come up Michelangelo comes to mind very quickly with the beautiful statues and his exquiste paintings. But the question that truly comes to mind is whether, when we look at the works, we are viewing (and worshipping) an entity, or we are actually reliving the words and teachings of the bible through the stories that these works of art teach. How frustrating it must have been to try to teach those who couldn't read what is written in the bible, when today we know that we can give our literate generations a bible or tract and they can read and absorb it at their own pace. And is it not true that sometime's a picture can truly say a thousand words.

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

Thats where Stained Glass comes from Ann....it told the Gospel to people who couldnt read...you know...back when the CC was hiding the Bible from the people.

 

[Ann M]

Totally awesome, isn't it.

I guess that might be where the phrase of a light shining through the darkness might come from.

 

[Borealis]

the Catholic Church teaches that we must follow the 10 commandments (Decalogue) as a divine insight into the natural law.

This is true. Of course, Protestants, especially Bible Christians, don't pay any attention to the Catechism, do they? They only accept what's in the Bible itself. I just thought this passage would give us a fresh way to counter the 'idolaters' slander.

 

[RhetorTheo]

The only idol I've seen worshipped by Christians is the Bible. I've seen it treated as too holy to be written upon or highlighted, and God forbid you place your feet upon it when it's sitting on the table.

 

[Christy4Christ]

I know the Catholic church teaches we should follow the ten commandments but it was a nice try

 

[Metanoia02]

Borealis,

If you are interested in how Pope John Paul II views this passage, take the time to read Chapter I of his Encyclical Veritiatis Splendor.

http://www.newadvent.org/docs/jp02vs.htm

Although it does not aid you in your arguement about idol worship, it is from my point of view the greatest works of the present Pope. The encyclical is perhaps the best statement about moral theology in the 2000 year history of the Church.

 

[Debi1967]

Ok you wanted someone familiar with Apologetics to answer this and dissect it for you, so here it goes.

The CC promotes not negating scripture. So, if this is true then it does say in the OT not to make carven images or idols and worship them for this is not pleasing to the Lord.

These are two common scriptures that are used against us all the time. How would you answer?

Isaias 42

8 I the Lord, this is my name: I will not give my glory to another, nor my praise to graven things.



1Corinthians 10

13 Let no temptation take hold on you, but such as is human. And God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that which you are able: but will make also with temptation issue, that you may be able to bear it.

14 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, fly from the service of idols.

15 I speak as to wise men: judge ye yourselves what I say.

16 The chalice of benediction which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? And the bread which we break, is it not the partaking of the body of the Lord?

17 For we, being many, are one bread, one body: all that partake of one bread.

18 Behold Israel according to the flesh. Are not they that eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar?

19 What then? Do I say that what is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing? Or that the idol is any thing?

20 But the things which the heathens sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils and not to God. And I would not that you should be made partakers with devils.

(Let me advise everyone I am not saying that I am questioning on this behalf, I am merely answering the OP)

In Christ

Debi