Ethics

ericlawrence said:

It wouldn't matter to me if he was a deluded, charismatic rabbi or the son of god - I wouldn't have supported the execution of a human being - especially not under the guise of a human sacrifice to god.

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You realize there was no guise of a human sacrifice to G-d? He died as a criminal.

ericlawrence said:

You are still be asked to perform a sort of mental gymnastics and suppress an otherwise healthy thought or emotion (say, lust).

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Nobody said taking up your cross daily and following Jesus was easy!

I'd much rather converse with someone who is honest about this as you are, then a poseur calling himself a Christian. The guy in my tagline, Harry, seems to have a ministry in these parts of delineating the C boundaries. Since he's not here, if I might step on his toes:

"[This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. Galatians 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit."

Humbling stuff! I would not try to make it easier than it is. The real point is, such a lifestyle is a miracle, every step of the way. That's why those you converse with here aren't merely discussing 'how many angels fit on the head of a pin,' but speaking from experience.

ericlawrence said:

I understand what you are saying. I was under the impression that beliefs of this kind were better encompassed within pantheism rather than theism - or Christianity in general, which centers around a personal creator who created man in his own image. Would the god that you describe be capable of intervening in human affairs (such as answering prayers)?
Also curious; What leads you to believe in the existence of a sort of "universal consciousness"? Is it a scriptural interpretation or something else?

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Yeah as I was writing I knew it sound pantheism. What I believe would be more like panentheism (wiki it ) though I do believe in a personal Creator God. I think this God can interven in human affairs as I am lucky to have come across some rather convincing healings and personal experiences of God.

In you second question are you asking why I believe in a more philosophical God than a man in the sky God of some Christians (I know they don't actually think He is a man in the sky)? Its not really down to the Bible. But it seems obvious to me that God must be beyond time and space, and being creator as well as sustainer He control existance of all things at all times. I think these things bring us close to the idea of God I have.

Well, not being a Christian myself, I'm only basing my understanding on the texts themselves and - to a lesser extent - the words of those who claim to be able to speak on behalf of the creator. There are a seemingly infinite number of conflicting interpretations of god. I can't possibly hope to address them all in a single post.

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Maybe I am assuming wrongly you are just using the interpretation of a certain denomination of Christianity, but even when reading the Bible without prior knowledge of theology its likely that the opinion of the culture will colour our view (such as helling being eternal fire).

I haven't been convinced it's a kingdom of goodness.

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In a way Heaven by definition is good, like God is.

"And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.” - Revelation" 21:3-4

I can't find the punishment of thought to be well intended, or at least not very well thought out. A thought is not something that can be prevented. What would it even mean to choose your thoughts before they enter your head? These are laws you will never truly be able to obey; therefor you will always be subject to their penalty. This is the signature of a tyrant.

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Well it seems to me to be presenting a high moral standard. Most people don't murder and alot don't commit adultery so are you a perfectly good person simply if do the minimum and resist obvious evils? If you know the story of good samaritan if would be like comparing a minimally good samarita to a good samaritan. It could also being compared to being simply just or going the extra step to be loving. So overemphasis of morality give something for someone who is seriously interesting in being a good person to aim for. Obviously I and most people fall far short and it is hard to stop a thought.

Anyway I don't think people are punished soley for their thoughts, the state of ones heart is the important thing in my opinion. Sorry for the length of that explaintion.

Well, for the purpose of conversation I'm referring to the standard Biblical interpretation - that Jesus Christ was sent to die on the cross to relieve us of our sins. This was actually a common bronze and iron age practice, one known as scapegoating. You pile the sins of the tribe onto a goat and you drive him out into the desert to die with them. The idea here is that only a human scapegoat would be sufficient. I don't accept the premise. My sins do not disappear with the death of another. Blame cannot be externalized and even if it could it wouldn't be morally sound to do so. There is a further implication; I'm told that I must accept this sacrifice. I'm told that it was I who drove in the nails. If I refuse to accept this I do so on pain of death and everlasting torture. Again, this is a tyrannical act.

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It it possible to have a different view of the cross than this though. For example of God expressed in human form by a man going to the cross who didn't deserve it for a greater purpose. So the death of Christ can lead to an understanding of the great love of God and so repentance.

Is it possible that the death of Christ can be a cause of salvation with Him having to literally take your sin? Its a really really confusing subject and I honestly don't have a anything like a fully understanding at the moment, but I don't think the wording used 2000 years ago should put as off, because it was of course writen for an audience who lived 2000 years ago.

And forgive me for being rather brash. I'm sure many people understand the events differently; I'm merely giving you my response to the hypothetical.

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Yeah, sorry for if I write too much or if I sound like I think I know all the answers.

ericlawrence said:

Yes, though I could never quite make out what the crime was. Claiming to be king of the Jews?
Related note: have you read the Gospel of Judas?

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I have read the gospel of Judas, and I did wish it was complete. It doesn't sound like the words are written by someone who is friends with the Holy Spirit. I wonder if you are able to perceive that too?

Hey, I noticed your name today while using Fiddler!

ericlawrence said:

Does god command things because they are ethical? Or are things ethical because they are commanded by god?

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in a very general sense...the latter.

ericlawrence said:

Well, I can't say I recognize what a gospel written by someone who is friends with the holy spirt would sound like. The gnostic gospels certainly take a different tone than those which are included in the cannon.

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Ok, thanks.

ericlawrence said:

What's Fiddler?

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It's a software that acts as a sort of internal proxy on a Windoze computer, that routes all of the host's HTTP traffic through itself, then enables you to see what's going on in your system. It's useful for debugging ajax requests with IE.