Ethical issues with owning a bar/tavern

[NHB_MMA]

I have an opportunity to be an investing partner/owner in your average run-of-the-mill bar that is for sale. In some ways, it would be an ideal business. I like to talk to people, although I'm not persuasive enough to be real prosperous as a salesperson in my current position. I'm a nightowl by nature too.

There are some potential ethical issues that arise. I would just want a casual, relaxing place that does not emphasize heavy drinking such as quart-size drafts or yard-high glasses. I understand there are good people, like my former boss, that keep their life in order but drink rather heavily. That is his business, but I don't like being a part of encouraging daily, heavy drinking in a person such as him, for example.

Has anyone ever been involved with owning/managing an establishment that serves alcohol and have you had some troubling issues to deal with? How did you handle them?

As a final note, while anyone can reply, obviously I am not a part of the segment of Christianity that considers all drinking a sin, so there is no real sense in replying if that is all you have for me. I just don't want to get completely off-topic with the notion that wine was really grapejuice or something along those lines.

 

[DZoolander]

I have an opportunity to be an investing partner/owner in your average run-of-the-mill bar that is for sale. In some ways, it would be an ideal business. I like to talk to people, although I'm not persuasive enough to be real prosperous as a salesperson in my current position. I'm a nightowl by nature too.

There are some potential ethical issues that arise. I would just want a casual, relaxing place that does not emphasize heavy drinking such as quart-size drafts or yard-high glasses. I understand there are good people, like my former boss, that keep their life in order but drink rather heavily. That is his business, but I don't like being a part of encouraging daily, heavy drinking in a person such as him, for example.

Has anyone ever been involved with owning/managing an establishment that serves alcohol and have you had some troubling issues to deal with? How did you handle them?

As a final note, while anyone can reply, obviously I am not a part of the segment of Christianity that considers all drinking a sin, so there is no real sense in replying if that is all you have for me. I just don't want to get completely off-topic with the notion that wine was really grapejuice or something along those lines.

Well, from my experience, there are two types of bars.

There are the types of bars that people go to in order to get drunk (usually cheesy little places) - and there are bars that are more conducive to lounging, talking, etc.. There's more of an ambiance in the second.

Which do you have an opportunity to invest in?

 

[Chie]

I have an opportunity to be an investing partner/owner in your average run-of-the-mill bar that is for sale. In some ways, it would be an ideal business. I like to talk to people, although I'm not persuasive enough to be real prosperous as a salesperson in my current position. I'm a nightowl by nature too.

There are some potential ethical issues that arise. I would just want a casual, relaxing place that does not emphasize heavy drinking such as quart-size drafts or yard-high glasses. I understand there are good people, like my former boss, that keep their life in order but drink rather heavily. That is his business, but I don't like being a part of encouraging daily, heavy drinking in a person such as him, for example.

Has anyone ever been involved with owning/managing an establishment that serves alcohol and have you had some troubling issues to deal with? How did you handle them?

As a final note, while anyone can reply, obviously I am not a part of the segment of Christianity that considers all drinking a sin, so there is no real sense in replying if that is all you have for me. I just don't want to get completely off-topic with the notion that wine was really grapejuice or something along those lines.

I never owed a bar , but I have been in many of your average run of the mill bars.
In my experience it's like picking out what you want to eat in a pot of poisoned stew.
You not gonna have good without the bad.

 

[TheFathersDaughter]

Feh, drinking isn't all that bad. Wine can actually be good for you in small portions. But if you own a bar without proper safety regulations I can't really take your side. But if you own a bar and carefully consider your customers health, sounds like a lounge or community center. Nice. Safe. Nothing bad about it.

Lets not go into an argument about how drinking is bad and I'm wrong ahead of time please. Just make a new thread and I'll be happy to tell you.

 

[NHB_MMA]

Well, from my experience, there are two types of bars.

There are the types of bars that people go to in order to get drunk (usually cheesy little places) - and there are bars that are more conducive to lounging, talking, etc.. There's more of an ambiance in the second.

Which do you have an opportunity to invest in?

Kind of a hybrid, from what I observed while there on a weekend. It attracts more of a young crowd than an older crowd and I'm sure there were some people throwing them down all night, but it wasn't a rowdy environment at all.

The guy has invested a lot of money in a security system, checks every ID via a computer reader when you enter, and has painted the restrooms black to keep people from writing on the walls and stall doors since you basically couldn't read it. There is a small room in the back with a pool table, dartboard, and bubble hockey machine. On the other side of that room is a relatively small dance floor with another bar nearby for drinks and food orders and a DJ booth overhead. There lighting and sound system was impressive for a relatively small place.

 

[NHB_MMA]

I never owed a bar , but I have been in many of your average run of the mill bars.
In my experience it's like picking out what you want to eat in a pot of poisoned stew.
You not gonna have good without the bad.

That is true. There is only so much I can do to influence the behavior. I have my own idea of about how much I can drink before I really shouldn't drink anymore, but my idea is not shared by all. How responsible is a Christian for the behavior of customers in a business setting? That's an interesting question. I would not be hesitant to tell someone if I think they have drank too much or perhaps spend too much of their time in a given week at the bar, but I don't know that I would refuse to serve them. If you own a restaurant, is it your duty to guard against others committing glutony? If you own a pharmacy and you're sure someone it taking too many narcotics, but not enough to warrant a criminal investigation, do you have a moral duty to refuse to fill the prescription or just follow doctor orders? These are interesting questions. To me, the most glaring one is the drunk driving issue. I would do whatever I could do to keep a drunk from getting behind the wheel.

 

[ebia]

I have an opportunity to be an investing partner/owner in your average run-of-the-mill bar that is for sale. In some ways, it would be an ideal business. I like to talk to people, although I'm not persuasive enough to be real prosperous as a salesperson in my current position. I'm a nightowl by nature too.

From a practical perspective, running a bar is far harder work that most people think. The hours are absurdly long, and much more of your time is spent on sheer grind, than most people realise. The image of the the publican propping up the bar while he chats to the customers is, for the most part, a fantasy. It's also much harder to make a decent profit than most people realise. So do your homework before you get involved.

There are some potential ethical issues that arise. I would just want a casual, relaxing place that does not emphasize heavy drinking such as quart-size drafts or yard-high glasses. I understand there are good people, like my former boss, that keep their life in order but drink rather heavily. That is his business, but I don't like being a part of encouraging daily, heavy drinking in a person such as him, for example.

Has anyone ever been involved with owning/managing an establishment that serves alcohol and have you had some troubling issues to deal with? How did you handle them?

I haven't done it professionally, but I have organised and managed beer festivals on behalf of CAMRA in the UK. The tone you set fron the outset has a big influence on the issues you have to deal with. Set a tone that emphasises quality and interest in the drinks (eg boutique beers) rather than quantity. Encourage conversation (eg by keeping the music quiet - if the music is loud enough to prevent talking people drink more). Encourage people to sit down at tables - standing up with a glass in your hand encourages fast drinking. Serve tasty drinks with moderate alchohol levels rather than extra-strong-rocket-fuel and alcopops. Encourage games (darts, pool, cards, chess, backgammon, whatever) and that involve social interaction and give hands something to do besides lifting a glass up and down. Avoid things like "happy hour" like the plague. Etc.

It's perfectly possible to run a venue that encourages responsible drinking, and in that setting it's much easier to address irresponsible drinking.

That is true. There is only so much I can do to influence the behavior. I have my own idea of about how much I can drink before I really shouldn't drink anymore, but my idea is not shared by all. How responsible is a Christian for the behavior of customers in a business setting?

You are responsible for the behaviour that your business encourages. If you run a bar with cheap drinks and loud music (for instance) then you encouraging people to drink a lot.

That's an interesting question. I would not be hesitant to tell someone if I think they have drank too much or perhaps spend too much of their time in a given week at the bar, but I don't know that I would refuse to serve them.

In England a licencee has a legal duty not to serve somebody who is drunk. That law is probably observed more in the breach than the observance, but it does indicate where the standard should be. Somebody who is drunk has diminished ability to make good choices for themselves, so you have a duty do it for them that isn't there for, say, food in a restaurant which (hopefully) doesn't intoxicate the customer.

But, as I've indicated above, IMO your main responsibility is in the tone you set for the place. What you say in a few individual instances will pale into insignificance next to that.

If you own a restaurant, is it your duty to guard against others committing glutony? If you own a pharmacy and you're sure someone it taking too many narcotics, but not enough to warrant a criminal investigation, do you have a moral duty to refuse to fill the prescription or just follow doctor orders?

A phamacist does have quite major moral and legal obligations in this regard.

 

[Chie]

That is true. There is only so much I can do to influence the behavior. I have my own idea of about how much I can drink before I really shouldn't drink anymore, but my idea is not shared by all. How responsible is a Christian for the behavior of customers in a business setting? That's an interesting question. I would not be hesitant to tell someone if I think they have drank too much or perhaps spend too much of their time in a given week at the bar, but I don't know that I would refuse to serve them. If you own a restaurant, is it your duty to guard against others committing glutony? If you own a pharmacy and you're sure someone it taking too many narcotics, but not enough to warrant a criminal investigation, do you have a moral duty to refuse to fill the prescription or just follow doctor orders? These are interesting questions. To me, the most glaring one is the drunk driving issue. I would do whatever I could do to keep a drunk from getting behind the wheel.

Your concerns are good . You will have the bulk of responsibility.
Do some investigating , deep not surface. Take a look at both sides. Those that are there and those who have been there.
Go into various bars, sat back and observe, but don't drink , be clear headed when you analyzes all .

 

[DZoolander]

That is true. There is only so much I can do to influence the behavior. I have my own idea of about how much I can drink before I really shouldn't drink anymore, but my idea is not shared by all. How responsible is a Christian for the behavior of customers in a business setting? That's an interesting question. I would not be hesitant to tell someone if I think they have drank too much or perhaps spend too much of their time in a given week at the bar, but I don't know that I would refuse to serve them. If you own a restaurant, is it your duty to guard against others committing glutony? If you own a pharmacy and you're sure someone it taking too many narcotics, but not enough to warrant a criminal investigation, do you have a moral duty to refuse to fill the prescription or just follow doctor orders? These are interesting questions. To me, the most glaring one is the drunk driving issue. I would do whatever I could do to keep a drunk from getting behind the wheel.

From what I understand, you have a legal obligation to ensure that your patrons don't get too toasted. For example - you face legal/financial liability if a patron gets clearly toasted because you kept serving - then goes out and gets into a wreck. So yes - you do have to take those kinds of things into consideration.

...and it's good that you want to

 

[NHB_MMA]

From a practical perspective, running a bar is far harder work that most people think. The hours are absurdly long, and much more of your time is spent on sheer grind, than most people realise. The image of the the publican propping up the bar while he chats to the customers is, for the most part, a fantasy. It's also much harder to make a decent profit than most people realise. So do your homework before you get involved.

This guy showed my potential partner his tax returns and net income from 2006. The final return amount was...let's just say about 10-15 times the net income of the average American household, depending on what study you read.

I haven't done it professionally, but I have organised and managed beer festivals on behalf of CAMRA in the UK. The tone you set fron the outset has a big influence on the issues you have to deal with. Set a tone that emphasises quality and interest in the drinks (eg boutique beers) rather than quantity. Encourage conversation (eg by keeping the music quiet - if the music is loud enough to prevent talking people drink more). Encourage people to sit down at tables - standing up with a glass in your hand encourages fast drinking. Serve tasty drinks with moderate alchohol levels rather than extra-strong-rocket-fuel and alcopops. Encourage games (darts, pool, cards, chess, backgammon, whatever) and that involve social interaction and give hands something to do besides lifting a glass up and down. Avoid things like "happy hour" like the plague. Etc.

This looked like a largely domestic beer kind of place, though I did see some Guiness. Almost everyone was sitting. The games looked pretty good. A pool table, dartboard, and bubble hockey machine was probably pretty adequate for a bar that size. They also have a couple touchscreen machines like I love to play. There was some basketball game that looked like it hadn't been used in a while and one of those golf video games with the white ball a person spins to direct the shot.

The happy hour things is interesting. I don't know if this bar currently has a happy hour. I always thought of happy hour as drawing in business by trying to get people to stop in on their way home from work. I never thought of it as attracting the crowd that just wants to get totally loaded. This stuff is all such an interesting dilemma, because the goal is to sell a ton of alcohol, in the grand scheme of things, but not have an environment that encourages blatant irresponsibility or ignores addiction issues.

You are responsible for the behaviour that your business encourages. If you run a bar with cheap drinks and loud music (for instance) then you encouraging people to drink a lot.

The music thing is interesting. I don't know that it necessarily holds true at dance clubs where the primary reason people go is to dance. I can't ever remember being at a dance club and seeing someone so intoxicated they could hardly walk.

In England a licencee has a legal duty not to serve somebody who is drunk. That law is probably observed more in the breach than the observance, but it does indicate where the standard should be. Somebody who is drunk has diminished ability to make good choices for themselves, so you have a duty do it for them that isn't there for, say, food in a restaurant which (hopefully) doesn't intoxicate the customer.

There is a similar legal requirement here too. I think it spells out "visibly intoxicated" as the guideline. You can certainly be over the legal limit and not be visibly intoxicated, so I guess it has to serve as a reasonable guideline. The reality is most bar owners probably don't care how much a person drinks as long as someone capable is driving. It's very rare that I have seen someone cut-off.

 

[ebia]

This guy showed my potential partner his tax returns and net income from 2006. The final return amount was...let's just say about 10-15 times the net income of the average American household, depending on what study you read.

Ok

This looked like a largely domestic beer kind of place, though I did see some Guiness. Almost everyone was sitting. The games looked pretty good. A pool table, dartboard, and bubble hockey machine was probably pretty adequate for a bar that size. They also have a couple touchscreen machines like I love to play. There was some basketball game that looked like it hadn't been used in a while and one of those golf video games with the white ball a person spins to direct the shot.

The happy hour things is interesting. I don't know if this bar currently has a happy hour. I always thought of happy hour as drawing in business by trying to get people to stop in on their way home from work. I never thought of it as attracting the crowd that just wants to get totally loaded. This stuff is all such an interesting dilemma, because the goal is to sell a ton of alcohol, in the grand scheme of things, but not have an environment that encourages blatant irresponsibility or ignores addiction issues.

I haven't kept the details, but I have seen reference to (UK) studies that do show links between 'happy hour' and similar promotions and problem drinking.

The music thing is interesting. I don't know that it necessarily holds true at dance clubs where the primary reason people go is to dance. I can't ever remember being at a dance club and seeing someone so intoxicated they could hardly walk.

If it's a dance club where people actually dance that may be true. Spend some nights there - particularly close to closing time - and look out for problem behaviour and other signs of problem drinking. See whether it's a significant issue.

There is a similar legal requirement here too. I think it spells out "visibly intoxicated" as the guideline. You can certainly be over the legal limit and not be visibly intoxicated, so I guess it has to serve as a reasonable guideline. The reality is most bar owners probably don't care how much a person drinks as long as someone capable is driving. It's very rare that I have seen someone cut-off.

Likewise in the UK, but I think the fact that the law is there is an indication that society expects you to share some of the responsibility for the effects of what you sell.

 

[Archivist]

I have an opportunity to be an investing partner/owner in your average run-of-the-mill bar that is for sale. In some ways, it would be an ideal business. I like to talk to people, although I'm not persuasive enough to be real prosperous as a salesperson in my current position. I'm a nightowl by nature too.

There are some potential ethical issues that arise. I would just want a casual, relaxing place that does not emphasize heavy drinking such as quart-size drafts or yard-high glasses. I understand there are good people, like my former boss, that keep their life in order but drink rather heavily. That is his business, but I don't like being a part of encouraging daily, heavy drinking in a person such as him, for example.

Has anyone ever been involved with owning/managing an establishment that serves alcohol and have you had some troubling issues to deal with? How did you handle them?

As a final note, while anyone can reply, obviously I am not a part of the segment of Christianity that considers all drinking a sin, so there is no real sense in replying if that is all you have for me. I just don't want to get completely off-topic with the notion that wine was really grapejuice or something along those lines.

I enjoy visiting microbreweries around the country. One thing that I have noticed is that in general microbrew drinkers, as well as those who drink quality imports, don't tend drink to excess because they want to savor the taste of the beer. Perhaps the higher prices of microbrews and quality imports also contributes to this. Obviously this isn't true in every case, some people are going to try to drink to excess no matter what.

We have a microbrewery in the borough where I live that has the look and feel of an English pub. They serve the best fish & chips and bangers & mash in the area. It's a neat place.

 

[UberLutheran]

I have an opportunity to be an investing partner/owner in your average run-of-the-mill bar that is for sale. In some ways, it would be an ideal business. I like to talk to people, although I'm not persuasive enough to be real prosperous as a salesperson in my current position. I'm a nightowl by nature too.

There are some potential ethical issues that arise. I would just want a casual, relaxing place that does not emphasize heavy drinking such as quart-size drafts or yard-high glasses. I understand there are good people, like my former boss, that keep their life in order but drink rather heavily. That is his business, but I don't like being a part of encouraging daily, heavy drinking in a person such as him, for example.

Has anyone ever been involved with owning/managing an establishment that serves alcohol and have you had some troubling issues to deal with? How did you handle them?

As a final note, while anyone can reply, obviously I am not a part of the segment of Christianity that considers all drinking a sin, so there is no real sense in replying if that is all you have for me. I just don't want to get completely off-topic with the notion that wine was really grapejuice or something along those lines.

This is just a thought, having been in American bars (which I generally dislike intensely) and European bars (which are really neat, fun places to go).

Have you thought about modeling your after European bars? We have some European-style bars now in the city where I live, and they're MUCH more enjoyable than the American-style bars.

There's going to a bar to get drunk; and then there's going to a bar for the ambience and the experience of enjoying other peoples' company. I greatly prefer the latter.

Hope this helps.

 

[Blake4000]

The LAW of God have stated quite clearly that it is wrong to sell intoxicating items. Bars and Pubs are merely little sinning havens where drunken people go. When people drink alcohol they are more deaf to God and will do things they wouldn't normally do when sober.
Alcohol is a sin. Drugs is a sin.

 

[NHB_MMA]

One thing that I have noticed is that in general microbrew drinkers, as well as those who drink quality imports, don't tend drink to excess because they want to savor the taste of the beer. Perhaps the higher prices of microbrews and quality imports also contributes to this. Obviously this isn't true in every case, some people are going to try to drink to excess no matter what.

There is a fair selection of imports at this place, I believe. I usually just drink Coors Light because I know what I'm getting. And nothing is true in every case. All a person can do is promote the right environment but it is impossible to keep every single person from getting trashed.

 

[NHB_MMA]

This is just a thought, having been in American bars (which I generally dislike intensely) and European bars (which are really neat, fun places to go).

Have you thought about modeling your after European bars? We have some European-style bars now in the city where I live, and they're MUCH more enjoyable than the American-style bars.

There's going to a bar to get drunk; and then there's going to a bar for the ambience and the experience of enjoying other peoples' company. I greatly prefer the latter.

Hope this helps.

I have been to an Irish pub in one of the Pittsburgh neighborhoods and a German place while visiting the Cincinnati area. They do have a nice atmosphere, but I'm not sure of everything that separates the European style bar from the American bar.

At any rate, it's hard to go in and make wholesale changes to an operation that is producing mid six-digit net profits per year.

 

[NHB_MMA]

The LAW of God have stated quite clearly that it is wrong to sell intoxicating items.

Hmm. The Bible makes numerous references to wine and I'm puzzled as to where this is stated "quite clearly". Bible only, please...not Nazarene manual.

Bars and Pubs are merely little sinning havens where drunken people go.

It's easy to find drunken people at many bars, and behavior of every kind. I've had theological discussions with bartenders and patrons for that matter. I don't see an abnormal amount of sinful behavior at most bars.

When people drink alcohol they are more deaf to God and will do things they wouldn't normally do when sober.

When consumed in excess, I wouldn't argue.

Alcohol is a sin.

It's remarkable you've made such a determination with such certainly. Again, I would like the logic behind it.

 

[ebia]

This is just a thought, having been in American bars (which I generally dislike intensely) and European bars (which are really neat, fun places to go).

Have you thought about modeling your after European bars? We have some European-style bars now in the city where I live, and they're MUCH more enjoyable than the American-style bars.

There's going to a bar to get drunk; and then there's going to a bar for the ambience and the experience of enjoying other peoples' company. I greatly prefer the latter.

Hope this helps.

Australian pubs are also dreadful compared with English and European ones. The only thing I miss most about England is decent pubs.

 

[ebia]

I enjoy visiting microbreweries around the country. One thing that I have noticed is that in general microbrew drinkers, as well as those who drink quality imports, don't tend drink to excess because they want to savor the taste of the beer. Perhaps the higher prices of microbrews and quality imports also contributes to this. Obviously this isn't true in every case, some people are going to try to drink to excess no matter what.

We have a microbrewery in the borough where I live that has the look and feel of an English pub. They serve the best fish & chips and bangers & mash in the area. It's a neat place.

It's not the price that's the issue, because this is also true in England where quality beer is the same price (or cheaper) than the rubbish in pubs. It's more to do with drinking it for the interest and pleasure of the drink itself, rather than for the intoxicating effect.

 

[ebia]

The LAW of God have stated quite clearly that it is wrong to sell intoxicating items. Bars and Pubs are merely little sinning havens where drunken people go. When people drink alcohol they are more deaf to God and will do things they wouldn't normally do when sober.
Alcohol is a sin. Drugs is a sin.

I'll go with Jesus and Paul on this one, thanks.