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The factoid is ...Now, if predestination did mean that God chooses who will believe,
then there WOULD be a huge conflict between predestination and free will.
Please quote every verse that is about those who don't endure, and I'll show you context that proves that enduring isn't about getting or staying saved.
Just throwing out lots of verses, as if that accounts for some kind of refutation, doesn't refute anything. None of the verses being quoted says anything about loss of salvation.
And none of these verses changes what the verses in the OP say.
How about just answering the questions in the OP: if the verses in the OP are profitable for teaching, just what are they teaching. If they are profitable for something else, then what are they profitable for? Keeping 2 Tim 3:16 in mind.
Thanks.
Though the debate between OSAS and LOS continues, the Bible is clear about which kind of security the believer has in Christ. And it isn't both kinds.
All references are from the NASB:
First, Paul described both justification (Rom 3:24, 5:15,16,17) and eternal life (Rom 6:23) as gifts of God. Then he wrote Rom 11:29 - the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable. Since he had already described what he meant by "gifts of God", there was no reason for him to specifically list what he meant by "gifts of God".
3:24 - being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus
6:23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
11:29 - for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
Second, every believer is sealed with the Holy Spirit when they believe (Eph 1:13). This sealing is a pledge with a view to the redemption of God's own possession (believers - Eph 1:14).
And, this sealing is for the day of redemption (Eph 4:30).
1:13 - In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise
1:14 - who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.
4:30 - Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
This “death” here seems to be physical death since Jesus goes on to say: 28… for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice.Third, Jesus tells us WHEN one HAS eternal life; when they believe (Jn 5:24). Then, He tells us that those to whom He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH (Jn 10:28).
5:24 - “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
10:28 - and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
Fourth, Paul stated that regardless of the believer's lifestyle, or "whether we are asleep or awake, we will be together with Him" in 1 Thess 5:10. The context begins in v.4 and contrasts believers with unbelievers, or day with night, or being alert with being asleep or sober with drunkeness.
4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief;
5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness;
6 so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober.
7 For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night.
8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.
Analysis of this passage:
v.4 tells us that believers are "not in darkness"
v.5 differentiates believers (sons of light and day) with unbelievers (not of night or darkness).
v.6 encourages believers to not live like unbelievers (not sleep as others do, but be alert and sober).
v.7 describes unbelievers and what they do.
v.8 explains that "since we are of the day" (believers), we need to be sober.
v.9 explains the destiny of the believer - not destined for wrath but for salvation
v.10 says that regardless of the believer's lifestyle, we will live together with Him.
Fifth, Jesus noted how people are saved in John 10:9 - “I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.
The Greek word for “enters” is in the aorist tense, meaning “in a point in time”, as opposed to the present tense, which those who believe in loss of salvation only emphasize. Iow, one must continue to believe in order to continue to have eternal life. Further, Paul used the aorist tense in his answer to the jailer in Acts 16:31, and Jesus used the aorist tense in Luke 8:12 “believed and be saved”.
Sixth, there are absolutely zero verses that warn us plainly that one can lose their salvation.
Yes, those who are tired should rest.The factoid is ...
there are 7-10 NT Scripture passages, which teach us (hopefully!) that
God gives the faith necessary for one to believe.
Ergo, again we must strive to somehow RECONCILE
the different passages about a topic so they fit together.
I've done this elsewhere concerning OSAS and LOS,
now someone else can do it for this topic.
And that doesn't prove a thing. At the very least, NONE of them directly say that salvation can be lost, in any word order or choice.You asked for verses and I gave them to you.
How about answering the OP and explaining what all the verses in the OP are teaching?You don't want to address them because they clearly prove your position to be in error.
So, how about just 1 single verse that is clear enough for even someone as slow as myself can not argue with?
Agreed!Free Grace, I think Isaiah 55:11 confirms how God will do all He means > in us "who first trusted in Christ" (Ephesians 1:12). So, He will not fail to save whomever He has received, with His commitment to succeed. Philippians 2:13 shows me how He in us "works" in our willing so we will what He wants. Where He "works", He does not fail but succeeds in us >
"being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;" (Philippians 1:6)
So, in case we have been saved, yes we are guaranteed Heaven, but also we are unconditionally guaranteed how God in us will work our willing and doing > Philippians 2:13 > so we succeed in doing all God means by His word > this includes >
(1) We become more and more like Jesus > "gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls," Jesus says in Matthew 11:29.
Yes, it's a major error to tell anyone to recite any prayer that guarantees heaven. It isn't the words that save anyway. It's whether the person actually believes the message of the gospel and trusts Christ for saving them. Further, it's a total error to ignore all the warning passages about God's hand of discipline for those children of His who become disobedient.(2) We become pleasing to our Father in His love's "incorruptible beauty of gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in the sight of God." (in 1 Peter 3:4) We love God, including by being so pleasing to Him, in His own love's (Romans 5:5) "gentle and quiet spirit"So, I think it's a major error and hoax, how ones tell someone who says a copy-cat prayer that they are guaranteed Heaven, but they are not told how they are guaranteed to become and live and love, now.
Agreed!!(3) We are "called in one body" to be personally ruled in our "hearts" by God's own peace > "And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful." (Colossians 3:15) God does this now in us who are His children. But ones do not tell people that our Father rules each of us so personally, right in each one's heart.
(4) God has us relating in His own love with one another > "with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love," (Ephesians 4:2) < this, too, is included in our basic calling as Christians < Ephesians 4:1-3.
I disagree here. Getting saved is all about believing God's promise. It has nothing to do with human effort, which some call "deeds", or "works", or "submitting".(5) So, getting truly saved includes submitting to our Heavenly Father for His personal correction in us > Hebrews 12:4-11. This is included in becoming and living as a child of God > "But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons." (Hebrews 12:8)
Right. But none of this is in relation to getting saved.And there is more which God's word requires of us and which God Himself in us succeeds in having us doing (Isaiah 55:11) < so, we do not only try but fail to do what we ourselves can think and try to get our own selves to do!! But God in us corrects us and grows us into living so better in love, than how we have ever thought and tried.
It seems to me you're mixing grace and works together for salvation. There are 2 separate issues. The first is actually getting saved, which is by grace through faith, not of works, per Eph 2:8,9. The second is spiritual growth, or experiential sanctification, in which the believer grows up spiritually to maturity.So, I consider that there is false OSAS stuff which only guarantees "Heaven" but does not guarantee how God succeeds in doing all His meaning of His word in His people. And if ones say you can lose your salvation, they are not upholding how Isaiah 55:11 guarantees that God succeeds in doing all His meaning of His word in us.
God has guaranteed that He has given "all we need for life and godliness", per 2 Peter 1:3. But man must co-operate with the Holy Spirit in growing up spiritually. iow, the believer must understand and know what it means to be filled with the Holy Spirit (Eph 5:18), and to walk by His means (Gal 5:16), and STOP grieving (Eph 4:30) or quenching (1 Thess 5:19) the Holy Spirit.I would say, then, that . . . instead of only guaranteeing someone "Heaven", or arguing that someone can lose this . . . talk about how God's word guarantees His children that He Himself in us will succeed in having us do all He means by His word, and warn us not to depend on ourselves and our limited ability to understand and will what He desires > Proverbs 3:5-6.
I don't take it that way, but rather in the sense that some believers get involved in false doctrine and go spreading it around, like the circumcised believers did in Acts 15:5 - "But some of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed stood up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses.”By the way, according to what I read in 1 John 2:19, there are people who make some show of getting saved, but it is not real; and so they don't receive correction and do not grow in doing all that is written, how God does this with us.
The apostle John wrote about our "confirmation of salvation": 1 John 5:13 - These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.So, our Biblical confirmation of salvation is how "in this world" we have been perfected in God's love, making us so that "as He is, so are we in this world."
This is a poor example because the Bible does NOT teach anywhere that one has the power or ability to give up, throw away, release, lose, forfeit the gift of eternal life. So the example isn't relevant.Part of the meaning to the concept of being given a gift is the fact that the ownership of the gift actually transfers to the receiver of the gift and as such the receiver of the gift can do what he/she wants to do with the gift.
This is about blessings, not getting or staying saved. Again, not a relevant example.The Hebrew writer in Heb. 12:16 See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son.
That wasn't about getting or staying saved.Esau own the “gift” of the first born inheritance rights, which could not be taken from him by anyone, nor could someone stile it from his hand, not even his father could take them back, but Esau could sell it or give it away.
Blessings and reward certainly can be lost, or given up.The Hebrew writer is telling us not to give away or sell our birth right (as born again Christians) which is our inheritance of eternal life.
Yes, ownership in heaven is an inheritance based on performance (Rom 8:17b). A reward, in fact. But just being in heaven (like a renter, but not paying any rent) is the inheritance of being God's children. Rom 8:17a.We own a paid up tax free deed to a home in heaven, so that home was gifted to us, but the Hebrew writer is saying we could sell (or give it away) like Esau did.
So are spiritual gifts (Rom 1:11), and eternal life (Rom 6:23). And justification is called a gift in Rom 3:24 and 5:15,16,17. And Rom 11:29 says that God's gifts are irrevocable.Justification is a gift.
As the OP showed, one HAS eternal life WHEN one believes (Jn 5:24). And Jesus said those He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH in John 10:28. Again, eternal security.We now own eternal life in heaven, but we are not in heaven yet, so it is like a birthright to go to heaven is what we own.
Stop ya here. The issue of being cut off is in a metaphor about being useful. A branch is expected to bear fruit. If it doesn't, it is cut off. Since this is an agricultural metaphor, unuseable branches are tossed into a fire and burned.This takes some really heavy study of the context found in Ro. chps. 9, 10 and 11, but briefly:
Paul in Ro. 11:25… Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. 27 And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.”
28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
Paul is talking about the Israelites, that were under the promise given Abraham, but just got through saying: Ro. 11:4 And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.
Paul is seems to be saying that all Jews “they are enemies” (yet the elect in that they are Jews by birth), have been given the gift of being God’s select people, but in verse 5 Paul talks about only a remnant being saved?
Paul has also been talking about some that were branches being cut off (this would mean OSAS will not work).
One has to assume to think that being "cut off" equals loss of salvation.This is out of Ro. 11:
13 I am talking to you Gentiles…. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. 22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
Paul is not talking to nonbelieving Gentile, since they are not being addressed and would not be reading his letter, but this section is to gentile Christians, whom Paul warns can be “cut off” and said “…provided that you continue in his kindness”.
1 Thess 5:19 says to stop it, so yes, believers can. But why bring this up? Are you suggesting that quenching the Holy Spirit equals loss of salvation? Isn't that just an assumption, if that is your point?Can Christians quench the Holy Spirit?
Where does the Bible say anything about "throwing the Spirit out"?? It doesn't, so please don't assume that one can do that. In fact, Jesus promised the Holy Spirit to all believers and said that He might be with us forever. There is no teaching in the NT that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit can be lost.If you through the Spirit out do you also throughout your seal of eternal life?
I can't find any Scriptural teaching that the Holy Spirit will leave any believer. And that contradicts what Jesus promised in John 14:16 - “I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you foreverOK, if the Spirit is no longer with you, you can know you will not receive redemption at the time of Judgement?
Please prove from Scripture that walking away results in loss of salvation, and being a child of God, and losing eternal life.I fully agree “no one” can take you from god and God will not forsake you, but that does not mean God will not allow you to walk away; God is not a kidnapper nor will God hold you against your own will.
What verse or verses teach about becoming an un-sheep?If a former Christian will not go when Jesus calls he is no longer on of Christ’s sheep.
In the sense of security, you bet I do. I take John 10 :28,29 very literally. God holds on to us.Do you believe God would hold a person against their will?
No, and irrelevant to the issue.The question is: can a sheep of the Shepherd intentionally go off (like the prodigal son did) and not be forced to return to the flock (like in the prodigal son story)?
Paul contrasted the lifestyle of unbelievers with the proper lifestyle of believers, and then concluded that "whether we are awake or sleep, we will be together with Him". If my explanation and analysis of 1 Thess 5:4-10 is in error, please point out where the error is.This is all about existing Christian, but it does not say you cannot turn to the darkness and in fact Paul warns them and tells them what the “need” to do; “we need to be sober” if it wan not possible for them to get drunk Paul should have said “you are sober”.
Please cite any verse that teaches that one can "give up your eternal life in heaven".“How people are saved” is not addressing the fact after you are saved you can give up your eternal life in heaven.
No, to "real eternal life" is about blessings and reward for proper behavior.Gal. 6: 8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. 10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.
Paul explains plainly that eternal life is the harvest in the future we do not want to “give up”, but that also teaches we can give it up.
Why should one assume that having one's faith shipwrecked equate to loss of salvation? What Scriptural teaching supports this idea?1 Timothy 1:19 "Keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and their faith has been shipwrecked".
How is this question relevant to the fact that the gifts of God are irrevocable, from Rom 11:29, and the fact that eternal life is one of those gifts, from Rom 6:23? I don't see any connection.Can a shipwrecked boat save you?
What words communicate the idea that salvation can be lost, because I'm not seeing any such wording in this passage.Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Hebrews 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Hebrews 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Here we are warned that those who
1: were once enlightened
2: and have tasted of the heavenly gift
3: and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost
4: and have tasted the good word of God
5: and the powers of the world to come
can not only lose their salvation but can also be where it is impossible for them to be forgiven. This is the ultimate example of a saved person losing their salvation.
Sorry, but you just do not understand Paul's method of dealing with the churches.Where He "works", He does not fail but succeeds in us >
"being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work
in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;" (Philippians 1:6)
So, in case we have been saved, yes we are guaranteed Heaven, but also we are unconditionally guaranteed how God in us will work our willing and doing > Philippians 2:13 > so we succeed in doing all God means by His word >
Would that it were as simple as that. The problem is that there IS "once saved, always saved" in the Bible. As with other doctrinal controversies, it does no good to find a few verses that seem to support one POV and push aside (even to the point of pretending that they don't exist) other verses that seem to say the opposite.Here we are warned that those who
1: were once enlightened
2: and have tasted of the heavenly gift
3: and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost
4: and have tasted the good word of God
5: and the powers of the world to come...
There is no once saved always will be saved in the bible.
Would that it were as simple as that. The problem is that there IS "once saved, always saved" in the Bible. As with other doctrinal controversies, it does no good to find a few verses that seem to support one POV and push aside (even to the point of pretending that they don't exist) other verses that seem to say the opposite.
Two errors here. The first error is in the statement that God's "gift of grace" is irrevocable. The Bible never describes grace as a gift. The Bible does clearly describe a number of things that are called gifts:God's gift of grace is irrevocable, but that doesn't mean that we have to accept it.
Not to some. The phrase is an agricultural metaphor to indicate believers who don't bear fruit cannot be useful to God. But to think that "cut off and burned" relates to loss of salvation simply contradicts all the verses in the OP that teach eternal security.If we don't bear fruit, we will be cut off and burned.
Clear enough?
This was the point of my thread. That the 5 points dealing with various passages DO teach something, or are profitable for reproof, correction or instruction in righteousness.Would that it were as simple as that. The problem is that there IS "once saved, always saved" in the Bible. As with other doctrinal controversies, it does no good to find a few verses that seem to support one POV and push aside (even to the point of pretending that they don't exist) other verses that seem to say the opposite.
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