Eternal vs conditional security, or OSAS vs LOS

Born Again2004 said:

I will let the other commits go but, I couldn't pass this one up! You mean the same Paul that was struck down Blind by Jesus and then gave him sight to preach his word to the entire world, is out of context with another area of His word....you better think about that one for a while!

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If context of that post was considered, my comment made perfect sense. I was addressing the error of using 1 John 1:9 as a salvation verse. It never was for that.

I said this:
"The good news is that when we confess the sins we know about (the only ones we CAN confess) we are not only forgiven for those sins, but "cleansed (purified) from ALL ungodliness". Just as the verse says.

As we mature spiritually, we will become more sensitive to just how much sin we commit and will be better able to confess more and more sins. However, by confessing the sins we know about, we are cleansed from all ungodliness at the same time. Good news indeed!"

Born Again2004 said:

No disagreement...that is certainly good news, if you are bound by good works rather than a repentant heart which does not require perfection on your part which would be a requirement of God, if he was to count on your continued asking for forgiveness.

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My comments were about spiritual growth of the (saved) believer, not about someone who needs to be saved.

I believe this is what the Bible says the gospel is:
1 Corinthians 15:1-4
Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to youunless you believed in vain.
3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day -in accordance with the Scriptures,

• It says nothing about continued asking for forgiveness.

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The saved believer needs to CONFESS their sins for cleansing from their on going sins. This has nothing to do with the forensic forgiveness that comes by faith in Christ, per Acts 10:43 - “Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”

The forgiveness and cleansing of 1 Jn 1:9 is for restoration of fellowship with God.

It should be obvious that sin breaks fellowship. Sin offends holy God. It breaks fellowship, just as anything that one does that offends one's spouse will break fellowship (not relationship) with that spouse.

Born Again2004 said:

Maybe you can quote the verses that say specifically that one can lose there salvation!

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That'll be the day!!

Born Again2004 said:

Excuse me!...to be cleaned of all unrighteousness results in salvation!

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You're excused. The subject of 1 John 1 is fellowship. John used the word 4 time in 3 verses. One must have a relationship before there can be fellowship.

Again, 1 Jn 1:9 cannot be for unbelievers, because no one is saved by confessing their sins. People are saved by grace through FAITH (not confession), per Eph 2:8.

Born Again2004 said:

You believe what you want to believe and I will believe in what I want to believe.

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I believe what the Bible says, not what I "want to believe". But you certainly are free to believe whatever you want to believe.

Jesus died once for all and all sins.

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Agreed.

Being a Christian, I have Christ in me and have fellowship whether I ask for forgiveness for each and every sin I commit or not.

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Disagree. Forgiveness is the subject of 1 John. Otherwise, why did he mention it 4 times in 3 verses in the first chapter?

Fellowship speaks to the state or condition of a relationship, whether that of parent and child or husband and wife in a marriage.

While both relationships are permanent (at least that was God's design in the beginning regarding marriage), fellowship can either exist or not in either relationship.

When one party offends the other party, fellowship is broken.

The parable of the prodigal perfectly illustrates that principle. Throughout the parable, the prodigal was always a son, and the father was always the father. But fellowship was broken, which led the father to describe that as his son "was dead". But when the son confessed his sins and repented (returned to the father) fellowship was restored in that relationship. Leading the father to say this:
"for this son of mine was dead and has come to life again; he was lost and has been found.’ And they began to celebrate." Luke 15:24

The son didn't start out "spiritually alive", then died spiritually, and then came back to spiritual life again. It was fellowship between them that died and was revived.

For me, when or if I see a sin in me and, because I now I possess a repentant heart, I thank God for what is son has ALREADY done for me and is doing through me!...no matter what you may think, this is the truth....Romans 8:1!

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The truth is that we as God's children are cleansed and forgiven our sins WHEN we confess them. Because that is exactly what 1 John 1:9 teaches.

How can you be filled with the Holy Spirit or walk by His means if you haven't confessed your sins?

What do you do when you grieve and quench the Holy Spirit? Even then, just thank God for what Jesus did? One MUST confess their sins for forgiveness.

Jesus taught this same principle to his 12 disciples in John 13 when He was trying to teach them humility by washing their feet. When He got to Peter, Peter said "no". And Jesus said, "unless I wash your feet, you can have no part of Me". This is a reference to fellowship, not relationship. We know that because Jesus made the issue clear after Peter responded by then saying "then not only my feet, but my hands and my head". Jesus replied "10 Jesus said to him, “He who has bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you.” 11 For He knew the one who was betraying Him; for this reason He said, “Not all of you are clean.” Jn 13

By telling Peter he was already "clean" He meant that Peter was already saved and didn't need another bath. But he did need to clean his feet after walking in the world (the roads of that day were filthy with animal feces).

It is impossible for one to have fellowship with another IF one's feet are covered in feces. That's why feet washing was a very practical practice in that day. To get the stench off so the visitor wouldn't stink up the house. And ruin fellowship.

Born Again2004 said:

Your relationship / fellowship with God being dependent on you confessing all your sins...24/7, never missing one or forgetting one....GOOD LUCK...with that!

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I don't depend upon luck for anything. Sorry if you do.

1 John 1:9 covers ALL SINS by confessing the sins one is aware of.

"If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

So you see, luck isn't involved in forgiveness and cleansing. When we confess those sins we know about, we are not only forgiven of those sins, but we are cleansed from ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS. How is that not real clear?

And please quit ignoring the fact that fellowship IS the subject of 1 John 1.

I do not believe this is what Jesus meant by being set free!

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When He said that, it was NOT in relation to fellowship. It was in relation to relationship.

One needs to understand the difference between relationship and fellowship. Do you?

Born Again2004 said:

No it is not luck

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As I pointed out.

it is the free grace of God

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Yes, for sure. Which is why I chose that for my handle.

and our deeds are like "filthy rags".

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Yes, they are, but what is the connection between that and our discussion?

I find it odd that your member name is free grace, when you have no clue what free grace is!

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I believe the cluelessness is about your understanding of my views.

......If you say it depends on something you need to do, then it is not grace and certainly not free.

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How come it is that the requirement for believing for salvation and confession for restoration of fellowship is understood as being NON-meritorious?? Are you aware of what "non-meritorious" means?

I don't suppose you could give an explanation of this and how it relates to continued asking for forgiveness:
James 2:10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.......don't forget the law is still considered by God to be holy and righteous!

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I have no idea why this verse is being quoted. Could you at least explain what your view or understanding is of this verse?

But as to your request for an explanation of "this", I presume meaning how can one be required to confess sins as they occur if God's grace is free. Is that correct?

Well, I just did explain it. Both believing in Christ for salvation and confession of sins for restoration of fellowship are non-meritorious. Neither are "deeds" or "works" that qualify as being meritorious.

Salvation and cleansing are gifts of God. They are given on the basis of believing and confession, but neither results in anything being earned.

If your view is that I'm wrong on this, please explain exactly why and how I'm wrong.

Born Again2004 said:

James 2:10
This verse is very pertinent, in light of you insisting one must continually confess sins in order to stay in fellowship.

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I've not insisted on anything. I've only explained what John was writing about. And so far, you've done nothing to disprove or refute anything I've written.

If I'm so wrong, why hasn't there been any refutation of my comments?

God has never changed and his view in the above verse is still the same and would be the same regarding the act of confessing sin....if you miss or forget one sin, ever, it would be the same as failing in your confession.

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No, it would mean that one needs to confess every sin they are aware of. And it seems you're not even reading what I write. So what makes you think you can even comment on my view since you haven't even read them??

I explained what the phrase "and cleansed from ALL unrighteousness" means. So your comments here are irrelevant.

That is why 1 John 1:9 is not for believers....you are forgiven and Jesus is in you...this is a one time happening and not dependent on you to continue to do anything!

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Well, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. But there is NO REASON for John to be writing to believers, which is about fellowship, and then insert something that is not for believers.

You already have fellowship with him...if not you wouldn't ever recognize any sin!

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What is this based on? I find nothing in Scripture that supports this.

And it is very clear that the difference between relationship and fellowship is not at all understood by you.

Yes...continuing to confess sins day in and day out for the rest of your life is a "work" on your part and the grace would not be free because it requires you to continually confess. Martin Luther discovered this when in jail and was not allowed to go to confession. God said your salvation was by grace through faith and not of your own doing.

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Ol' Martin probably thought confession of sin either kept himself saved or helped to get himself saved. Either way he was wrong. No one can either save themself or help save themself.

I explained the word non-meritorious, but evidently you didn't read that either.

Be thankful that Christ is in you and when you see a sin, acknowledge your repentant heart and thank him for what he has already done. BY all means, if it makes you more complete, confess....but please don't think it is a requirement.[/QUOT]
Where did I ever even mention being "more complete"?? Again, please read my posts before making such huge errors when responding.

If it were a requirement, that would be like asking Jesus to be crucified over and over again

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What a ridiculous idea! Where in the world would confession of sin be like that?

.....he died once for all and all sin and then he said down, signifying his work was finished!

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He did. But we STILL get our feet dirty from all the feces on the road of life. Which is why believers STILL need to wash their feet when their feet get dirty.

But I explained all that from John 13, which again, evidently wasn't even read.

It is confession of sins and then salvation.

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Congratulations! On getting it exactly backwards.

Please show any verse that unambiguously teaches that salvation is by confession of sins. Because 1 John 1:9 doesn't even mention salvation.

Your a Christian with Christ residing in you, right.....nothing wrong with that!...my point would be no works required!

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That is my point. But confession, like believing in Christ, isn't a work. That's what the Bible teaches.

I don't think there is any future in further discussion since my posts haven't been read. And your "responses" aren't even close to anything I post.

If you really do want to discuss, you're going to have to read my posts. And actually respond to what I post, not what you may have imagined I have written.

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FaithfulPilgrim said:

I mosty agree with you OP, but there are some verses that seem to contradict OSAS. I recall Paul using phrases like "if you perservere" or "continue in the you will be saved."

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Please quote these verses along with the address. I'd be glad to consider them.

There are also verses in Hebrewa that warn about apostasy.

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Yes, there are. And apostasy means to "no longer believe what was once believed". However, I haven't found any verses that tell us that those who cease to believe cease to be saved. They're just not there.

I think we have to perservere to the end to be saved, but once we are sealed with the Spirit, it will not allow us to fall away and we don't really have a choice but to perservere.

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This is found in the Calvinistic doctrine of perseverance. Yet, Jesus taught a parable in which people did believe for a while, and then in time of testing, fell away. And no mention of salvation in jeopardy.

In the OT, King Saul was killed by God for seeking out a medium, according to 1 Chron 10:13,14
13 So Saul died for his trespass which he committed against the LORD, because of the word of the LORD which he did not keep; and also because he asked counsel of a medium, making inquiry of it,
14 and did not inquire of the LORD. Therefore He killed him and turned the kingdom to David the son of Jesse.

During that seance, Samuel told Paul that he would join Samuel the next day, according to 1 Sam 28:19 - “Moreover the LORD will also give over Israel along with you into the hands of the Philistines, therefore tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. Indeed the LORD will give over the army of Israel into the hands of the Philistines!”

I cannot imagine why a saved prophet of the LORD would mean only that Saul would join him "in the ground/grave". Samuel went to Paradise, as all saved people went in the OT. So Samuel was telling Saul that he would be with Samuel in Paradise.

I personally agree with Unconditional Eternal Security, but I have seen good arguments for the other side as well.

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It cannot be that both are taught in Scripture. Or Scripture would be internally contradicted and therefore hardly perfect.

Also, I disagree with how some people teavh it, causing some believers to get the wrong idea and live however they want.

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I agree. We're not saved to sin, but saved from sin. And we (believers) need to act that way.

ZacharyB said:

Man always has a choice to do what he desires.
God has given man free will to ensure that fact.
He has created no robots.
He desires for man to make his free will choices
to love Him, serve Him, obey Him, etc.
This is all over the OT, and God never changes!
But, He has given us a better covenant,
one which is easier for us to follow.

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The OT covenant wasn't for salvation. It was a tutor to lead us to Christ.

Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. Gal 3:24