Eternal security?

ByTheSpirit · Jun 19, 2012

I'm sure we've all talked about this before in some detail, but I came across this early and it really ruffled my feathers and made me scratch my head in confusion. This statement is from someone supporting eternal security and it seems almost to contradict itself and I'll explain my view. Here it is:

One must persevere in faith to be saved.; True believers cannot lose their faith, since it is Gods gift.; Those dying without faith in Christ are condemned.; Those who lose their faith never had it to begin with.; God will preserve true believers and they will be saved.

The first statement "One must persevere in faith to be saved." places the responsibility of perseverance on the believer (One must persevere). The last statement "God will preserve true believers and they will be saved." places it on God (God will preserve) That is a contradiction, is it not?

True believers cannot lose their faith, since it is God's gift. If one MUST persevere in the faith to be saved, how can this statement be true. Either you have to persevere to be saved, or you can not lose your faith PERIOD (perseverance or no). This is a contradiction.

Those who lose their faith never had it to begin with. In order to lose something a person has to have it first right? I can not lose my marbles (no laughing) if I never had them to begin with. I can not lose my car keys without first having car keys to lose. Simple facts of life, you must have something in order to lose it. So this statement just contradicts itself. Not to mention the previous statement of True believers cannot lose their faith, since it is God's gift. would seem to contradict this point's specific statement in that if "true believers" can't lose their faith, they have had faith at one point. Thus, those who lose their faith can be true believers because true believers have faith at some time. (I hope that made sense)

That original 5 point statement is from a Baptist brother of mine summarizing Classic Calvinism which is what he used to defend Eternal Security. I have not even listed my point for defending conditional security, but what are your thoughts?

romansonesixteengirl · Jun 20, 2012

I understand all of your points and we will agree to disagree I assume I read this very differently.

1) Why do you assume they contradict? The verb perseverance is defined as steady persistence in a course of action, a purpose, a state, etc., especially in spite of difficulties, obstacles, or discouragement. So as God says we must persevere; He also says He will preserve us. So when we go through those trials and difficulties, He will keep us from losing our faith because He understands we are only human and need His divine guidance.

2) Yes, we must persevere, but when the times get tough and we are humanly incapable of pushing forward God preserves us. Now lets define preserve, to keep safe from harm or injury; protect or spare. It is Gods gift, something He gave to us by dying on the cross for us, and He promised to never leave or forsake his children. God gave us a gift that cannot be lost! The verse says that to let us not worry, and there is no contradiction. We persevere because God allowed us to, because he preserved us- in many ways including from Hell.

3) I believe you have misinterpreted this. This clearly explains that those who claim to have lost their faith never had it to begin with. Because God never leaves us, and our eternity is certain, those few who claim that God left them, never asked Jesus to join them in this life to begin with.

This is just my thoughts, but I have prayed about this, and this is what God has revealed to me. Mostly I just read this differently, and I just cannot believe that my God would ever leave me-that was my first proof and most substantial to me. This is just supporting evidence.

ByTheSpirit · Jun 20, 2012

romansonesixteengirl said:
I understand all of your points and we will agree to disagree I assume I read this very differently.

1) Why do you assume they contradict? The verb perseverance is defined as steady persistence in a course of action, a purpose, a state, etc., especially in spite of difficulties, obstacles, or discouragement. So as God says we must persevere; He also says He will preserve us. So when we go through those trials and difficulties, He will keep us from losing our faith because He understands we are only human and need His divine guidance.

2) Yes, we must persevere, but when the times get tough and we are humanly incapable of pushing forward God preserves us. Now lets define preserve, to keep safe from harm or injury; protect or spare. It is Gods gift, something He gave to us by dying on the cross for us, and He promised to never leave or forsake his children. God gave us a gift that cannot be lost! The verse says that to let us not worry, and there is no contradiction. We persevere because God allowed us to, because he preserved us- in many ways including from Hell.

3) I believe you have misinterpreted this. This clearly explains that those who claim to have lost their faith never had it to begin with. Because God never leaves us, and our eternity is certain, those few who claim that God left them, never asked Jesus to join them in this life to begin with.

This is just my thoughts, but I have prayed about this, and this is what God has revealed to me. Mostly I just read this differently, and I just cannot believe that my God would ever leave me-that was my first proof and most substantial to me. This is just supporting evidence.

I give it to you, God will never leave you, but that doesn't cover for the fact of we can leave God. Like the shepherd that watches over his flock, the shepherd never leaves the flock, but the individual lamb of that flock can leave. God won't leave us, but we can leave God.

Hebrews 6:4-6 (HCSB)

4 For it is impossible to renew to repentance those who were once enlightened, who tasted the heavenly gift, became companions with the Holy Spirit, 5 tasted Gods good word and the powers of the coming age, 6 and who have fallen away, because, to their own harm, they are recrucifying the Son of God and holding Him up to contempt.

lismore · Jun 20, 2012

onlybygrace84 said:
I have not even listed my point for defending conditional security, but what are your thoughts?

Hello

How do you know that you haven't already lost your salvation? If indeed you believe it can be lost.

ByTheSpirit · Jun 20, 2012

lismore said:
Hello

How do you know that you haven't already lost your salvation? If indeed you believe it can be lost.

If a person has lost salvation they will not feel the need of repentance for sins anymore. It is Impossible to renew to repentance... those who fall away... Hebrews 6:4-6

dysert · Jun 20, 2012

I used to believe one could lose one's salvation -- giving back God's free gift, if you will. But the more I studied it the more I have become convinced that you can't lose your salvation. I'll just give two simple reasons why I believe this way.

For one thing, Jesus' sacrifice covered all our sins -- past, present, and future. So there's nothing we did, are doing, or will do that would overwhelm His sacrifice. God is the one who saved us, and He is the one who holds us. We did nothing to gain salvation, and we can do nothing to lose it.

The even stronger evidence that we're safe comes from 1 John. There we're told that when we became children of God, His "seed" (Gr. sperma) was put in us (1 John 3:9). Just as I have my earthly father's seed in me, so also do I have my heavenly Father's seed in me. And just as there's nothing I could possibly do to eliminate my earthly father's seed, so also there's nothing I could possibly do to eliminate my heavenly Father's seed.

Eph. 1:13-14 is another popular OSAS passage.

ByTheSpirit · Jun 20, 2012

Ok I can see where those scriptures would seem to support OSAS but I point you to a few, and by no means all my scripture references for this. I would say 80% of Hebrews is devoted to this subject "conditional security", 2 Peter, Jude...

Colossians 1:21-23 says Christ has reconciled us to the Father through His death IF we continue in the faith and are not moved away from the gospel.

Romans 11:17-24 - Paul warns Gentiles not to be conceited that God gave them salvation over the Jews rejection of Jesus. If God didn't spare the original branches of the vine (Jews) He wouldn't spare Gentiles either, the "wild olive" Verse 21 highlights this...

Passages I listed above of Jesus' own teachings in John 15 and Rev 3... Actually in nearly all the 7 churches of Revelation Jesus tells them that they MUST overcome/endure until the end to be saved...

I mentioned Hebrews already but just a couple passages to highlight from that book are 6:4-6 and 10:26-31... The author of this book warns those Jewish Christians that they could fall away, and if they did, for whatever reason, they would not be able to repent again.

Hebrews 6:4-6

New International Version (NIV)

4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

Hebrews 10:26-31

New International Version (NIV)

26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” and again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

I would add to this as well, what if a believer at some point after salvation disowned Christ for whatever reason? Would they remain saved? I know that's really cliche, but it's true... the doctrine of OSAS doesn't allow for that, yet Jesus says that if we deny Him in front of men He will deny us in front of the Father and Paul expounds on that more in Titus 1:16 by saying people were denying Christ by their works. They spoke the good word, but didn't live it. They were denying Christ, so it would seem Christ would deny them...

dysert · Jun 20, 2012

onlybygrace84 said:
Ok I can see where those scriptures would seem to support OSAS but I point you to a few, and by no means all my scripture references for this.

There's no doubt that there are compelling proof texts on both sides of this issue. That's why I took the default course of action and just accepted what I had always been taught. The only thing that finally pushed me over the edge towards OSAS was the "seed" stuff in 1 John. I agree that it's not cut-and-dried, though. In either case, I don't intend to experiment to find out ;-)

JimB · Jun 20, 2012

I believe that a person is saved as long as they want to be. Everything rests in freewill, Gods great gift to humans and what makes us different than lower creatures. We have been given the ability to choose our eternal destiny and that gift is never taken away from us. Both faith and love are choices. If, after we are saved, we choose not to believe or not to love, we have that God-given rightit is never taken away from us. We can become reprobate, shipwreck concerning the faith. No one can take our salvation from us but we can forfeit it if we choose to lo longer believe. God will not take us to heaven against our will.

~Jim

lismore · Jun 20, 2012

onlybygrace84 said:
If a person has lost salvation they will not feel the need of repentance for sins anymore. It is Impossible to renew to repentance... those who fall away... Hebrews 6:4-6

I don't think that someone who is Born Again could or would go down that line.

I also don't think Hebrews 6 or indeed Hebrews in context is supporting loss of a believer's salvation. There is a lot in Hebrews that clearly is not written to gentile believers and cannot apply to them. For a start the name of the Epistle is a clue!

God Bless

SavedByGrace3 · Jun 20, 2012

onlybygrace84 said:
I give it to you, God will never leave you, but that doesn't cover for the fact of we can leave God. Like the shepherd that watches over his flock, the shepherd never leaves the flock, but the individual lamb of that flock can leave. God won't leave us, but we can leave God.

If a person has lost salvation they will not feel the need of repentance for sins anymore. It is Impossible to renew to repentance... those who fall away... Hebrews 6:4-6

up to contempt.

I realize that this verse is much used by those who oppose OSAS.

I would suggest that the verse is being used out of context. The passage (beginning in 5:12) is discussing doctrine and the viability of the Hebrew's doctrine to save. The Hebrews wanted to re-institute the daily offering.
Paul is simply saying that if your (their) doctrine requires Jesus to go back to the cross on daily basis to die for our sins, then your doctrine is not a viabale doctine. Jesus will not die over and over again, so in that context the Hebrew's doctrine will not allow repeated repentance either. It is speaking hypothetically. When he says "and who have fallen away" he is speaking to their doctrine (not them) which would fail at this point.
They person following this hypothetical doctrine would not have any repentance available to them.
So this verse is actually saying the opposite.

Optimax · Jun 20, 2012

If one is born again and their spirit is a new creation as scripture says and the Holy Spirit dwells within them and Jesus said I will never leave you or forsake you.

How and what would be the process that would delete the new creation, evict the Holy Spirit and make Jesus change His mind and say something like "I was just kidding folks?

ByTheSpirit · Jun 20, 2012

I have already described and listed my scripture references for such a stand. So no further comment is needed on my part.

I will add one passage I feel is a big one in support of my view and that is Galatians 6:7-8. Don't be deceived, God can't be mocked. What a person sows they will reap. If to the flesh destruction or to the Spirit eternal life. I don't see how that can be interpreted any way other than how it reads. Paul explain a chapter earlier what it means to sow to the flesh or Spirit.

It is very easy to believe a person can't lose their salvation once saved, but I don't see that as true biblical doctrine.

Optimax · Jun 20, 2012

Well lets see! I had my salvation here just a minute ago.

Where did it go?

Did I lose it again?

JimB · Jun 20, 2012

Optimax said:
Well lets see! I had my salvation here just a minute ago.

Where did it go?

Did I lose it again?

No one can "lose" their salvation. But you can forfeit it ... unless you are a robot and have no freewill. You lose your carkeys; you have to willingly renounce your salvation.

~Jim

JimB · Jun 20, 2012

Optimax said:
If one is born again and their spirit is a new creation as scripture says and the Holy Spirit dwells within them and Jesus said I will never leave you or forsake you.

How and what would be the process that would delete the new creation, evict the Holy Spirit and make Jesus change His mind and say something like "I was just kidding folks?

True, Jesus never leaves us or forsakes us but I have known a host of folks through the years who left and forsook Him.

~Jim

lismore · Jun 20, 2012

JimB said:
No one can "lose" their salvation. But you can forfeit it ... unless you are a robot and have no freewill. You lose your carkeys; you have to willingly renounce your salvation.
~Jim

Here was me thinking the work of the last Adam was superior to the work of the first Adam.

We don't have the freewill to renounce our sinnership outside of Christ, why would sonship be any different?

TasManOfGod · Jun 20, 2012

I am a son of my earthly father. Is there somewhere to go if I want to lose that?

lismore · Jun 20, 2012

TasManOfGod said:
I am a son of my earthly father. Is there somewhere to go if I want to lose that?

Perhaps your freewill can change your DNA.

And as Peter Sellers once said 'No matter how far you run you can never run away from yourself'.

Jesus is in you. When you walk away he comes too!

Optimax · Jun 21, 2012

When my children were small and even growing into their teens they would say things they either did not mean or say things without understanding of what they were saying.

All Children do that at times. We do no always hear them say things.

Nothing they said not matter how much they thought they meant it at the time was sufficient to end our relationship. They were still my child, I was still their father.

What was affected at times was not the relationship, but the fellowship.

What restored the fellowship? When they said "I'm sorry".

Most Christians never get out of the "Babe in Christ" stage. They say and do things that break the fellowship until they repent. However the relationship is not broken or even touched.

I know that statement will be received with much enthusiasm but it is true anyway.
What keeps people from growing. They are in a place and chose to stay there where the milk of the word is not, much less any strong meat.

Most Christians(born again ones) are not capable of actual renouncing Jesus anymore than a two year old's fit renounces his parents.

I just know this post is going to make me extremely popular for awhile.

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