Eternal security or OSAS

[Bluelion]

So if you don't understand this. it can be addressed here, figure i would just make a thread for it and be done with it once and for all.

Many people point to Hebrew 6 as you can lose your salvation, which they don't understand the passage. It says Taste of the fruit which is different than eating the fruit. It is sampling heaven, not accepting it.

Ok lets look at the word taste, her is the strongs in Greek.
Word: geuomai

Pronounce: ghyoo'-om-ahee

Strongs Number: G1089

Orig: a primary verb; to taste; by implication, to eat; figuratively, to experience (good or ill):--eat, taste.

Use: TDNT-1:675,117 Verb

Heb Strong: H1104 H2938 H3938

1) to taste, to try the flavour of
2) to taste
2a) i.e. perceive the flavour of, partake of, enjoy
2b) to feel, make trial of, experience
3) to take food, eat, to take nourishment, eat

2b is trail a trail of, experience this is what the word means.

Where in the Bible is an example? Take the story of judas and Peter. Judas tasted the fruit of heaven, he was right there with Jesus, how ever he did not accept it. When he ate the Passover meal satan enter his heart because Jesus was not in it. How do we Know judas was not saved well Jesus said.
John 17:12NLT
12 During my time here, I protected them by the power of the name you gave me.[c] I guarded them so that not one was lost, except the one headed for destruction, as the Scriptures foretold.

So here we see judas was never saved he was always headed to hell, Jesus said he had not lost one, so judas and judas was never his to lose in the first place.

So what was judas doing tasting the fruit of heaven he is who Hebrews 6 speaks of.

Take Peter accepted Jesus full heartily, Now judas when he turned from God he could never be brought back, would God have forgiven him? i think so, but he could never come back. so he took his own life. Now Peter also turned from God and was brought back. people who hold to you can lose you salvation say you loses it by turning from God. Well Peter turned as far as you could, yet because he was saved Jesus had been praying for him, Peter was restored, he was never lost. God does everything for a reason, he does nothing in vain. The story of Peter and judas is in there for a reason. and that is one of them.

So does the Bible support this OSAS as some call it, Yes.

John 6:35NLT

35 Jesus replied, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never be hungry again. Whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. 36 But you haven’t believed in me even though you have seen me. 37 However, those the Father has given me will come to me, and I will never reject them. 38 For I have come down from heaven to do the will of God who sent me, not to do my own will. 39 And this is the will of God, that I should not lose even one of all those he has given me, but that I should raise them up at the last day. 40 For it is my Father’s will that all who see his Son and believe in him should have eternal life. I will raise them up at the last day.”

1st thing line 37 I will Never Rejected them. That is pretty clear cut.
2Nd line 39 It is Gods will Jesus not lose one of all he has been given, and Jesus always does Gods will not to is a sin.

Those two points in the passage Never Reject, a Gods will Not to Lose one. Show that God does not loses his children. to preach other wises is to preach against the word of God.

So does this passage conflict with Hebrews 6, accourting to those who say you can lose salvation it does. But we Know scripture never conflicts. So What i have offer as Hebrew 6 that they were never Gods in the first place, But saw he was God and saw his glory Yet still rejected it. Now that explanation does not conflict with John.

If you have another explanation where it does not conflict with john6:35. I am all ears.

I hope this settles it, but I know it won't

 

[Keachian]

My reply to someone's use of Heb 6:4-6 to try and imply that the Elect can lose their salvation is to get them to follow the argument down to v8, why jump out of the passage to prove that someone is misinterpreting the passage. It would only leave oneself open to accusations of eisegesis, especially from those with a reduced view of Scripture, one where the Apostles competed against each other and there is no consistency.

 

[Bluelion]

My reply to someone's use of Heb 6:4-6 to try and imply that the Elect can lose their salvation is to get them to follow the argument down to v8, why jump out of the passage to prove that someone is misinterpreting the passage. It would only leave oneself open to accusations of eisegesis, especially from those with a reduced view of Scripture, one where the Apostles competed against each other and there is no consistency.

For one the apostles do not compete the complement each other, and 2 all scripture is written by God through men 2 Peter. The whole Bible goes together.

and what does Hebrews 8 mean to you?.

 

[Keachian]

For one the apostles do not compete the complement each other, and 2 all scripture is written by God through men 2 Peter. The whole Bible goes together.

You and I believe this but not everyone in Christianity does.

and what does Hebrews 8 mean to you?.

If we follow the argument down through 6:7-8 the Writer starts to compare those who gain salvation and those who don't to the fields, those who are only playing religion in v8 have shown that they are only fit for the fire.

 

[Bluelion]

You and I believe this but not everyone in Christianity does.


If we follow the argument down through 6:7-8 the Writer starts to compare those who gain salvation and those who don't to the fields, those who are only playing religion in v8 have shown that they are only fit for the fire.

My thoughts as well. It is clearly talking about those who have not been saved but maybe hanging around the church. It says you will know them by their fruit.

Now look at 1 john 2:19 NLT which complements the verse.

19 These people left our churches, but they never really belonged with us; otherwise they would have stayed with us. When they left, it proved that they did not belong with us.


Not all agree the Bible fits together, but then again as we learn from these verse not all who claim to be Christians are.

The church has a set of moral code given to us by God. If a church rejects part of the Bible it is a heresy. The word of God is literally are written beliefs. We are completely dependant on God, and He gave us clear instruction. Jesus is the Word and the Word our rock.

Peace and Love
blu

 

[St Antony]

Salvation is a lifelong process. People who accept Christ and baptism must wake up each and every day after that and make a decision; are they going to live for Christ or something else? In fact, Christians may face several decisions each day like this. If someone spends their life deciding for Christ, through grace receive atonement for their sins and go to heaven. All men are sinners so God allows everyone to confess and repent of their sins to wipe away sin, as many times as they need to in life.

People who initially accept Christ, in full sincerity, but then fall away for Christ later in life will die in a state of sin and will not see heaven. Eternal Security is really a false security because if you aren't steadfast in your Christian walk, being saved at one point in your life won't get you to heaven.

 

[Bluelion]

Salvation is a lifelong process. People who accept Christ and baptism must wake up each and every day after that and make a decision; are they going to live for Christ or something else? In fact, Christians may face several decisions each day like this. If someone spends their life deciding for Christ, through grace receive atonement for their sins and go to heaven. All men are sinners so God allows everyone to confess and repent of their sins to wipe away sin, as many times as they need to in life.

People who initially accept Christ, in full sincerity, but then fall away for Christ later in life will die in a state of sin and will not see heaven. Eternal Security is really a false security because if you aren't steadfast in your Christian walk, being saved at one point in your life won't get you to heaven.

so are you saying God lied when he said he does not lose any of His? You take salvation out of the hands of Christ and put in the hands of men, as if men could ever keep their salvation or earn it. they can't even keep the Law yet you suggest we are capable of keep our own salvation. That is a false doctrine. Show me the verse that says man keeps His salvation?

 

[St Antony]

so are you saying God lied when he said he does not lose any of His? You take salvation out of the hands of Christ and put in the hands of men, as if men could ever keep their salvation or earn it. they can't even keep the Law yet you suggest we are capable of keep our own salvation. That is a false doctrine. Show me the verse that says man keeps His salvation?

Nope, God never lies but you assume a person becomes one of His (Elect) at the time of their profession of faith. If a person's profession of faith in sincere, and they died at that moment, then they would definitely be saved, but if they sin after that time and don't repent, then they are no longer saved.

Salvation is a free gift from God, but we as men as required to act on the grace He offers. We must believe, repent of our sins and strive everyday to follow the commands of Jesus found in the Gospel. You are right, man unassisted can't hope to follow the law, but we aren't unassisted. Jesus is with us every step of the way.

If we slip up, as everyone will since all fall short of the glory of God, they God lets us repent, show contrition for our wrong, and once again be in a state of grace with Him.

Not sure I understand your last "Show me the verse" statement, but if I understand you, you are asking for Scripture that shows salvation is a lifelong process rather than a one time event. I think St. Paul in Phil. 2:12 does not regard salvation as a one-time event, but as a goal to be sought after, on that can be lost: "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" (see also 1 Cor 9:27, 10:12; Gal 5:1, 4; Phil 3:11-14; 1 Tim 4:1, 5:15)

 

[Bluelion]

Nope, God never lies but you assume a person becomes one of His (Elect) at the time of their profession of faith. If a person's profession of faith in sincere, and they died at that moment, then they would definitely be saved, but if they sin after that time and don't repent, then they are no longer saved.

Salvation is a free gift from God, but we as men as required to act on the grace He offers. We must believe, repent of our sins and strive everyday to follow the commands of Jesus found in the Gospel. You are right, man unassisted can't hope to follow the law, but we aren't unassisted. Jesus is with us every step of the way.

If we slip up, as everyone will since all fall short of the glory of God, they God lets us repent, show contrition for our wrong, and once again be in a state of grace with Him.

Not sure I understand your last "Show me the verse" statement, but if I understand you, you are asking for Scripture that shows salvation is a lifelong process rather than a one time event. I think St. Paul in Phil. 2:12 does not regard salvation as a one-time event, but as a goal to be sought after, on that can be lost: "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" (see also 1 Cor 9:27, 10:12; Gal 5:1, 4; Phil 3:11-14; 1 Tim 4:1, 5:15)

Philippians 2:12 speaks to what he just discussed not that you need to keep your salvation. You have to put it in context. maybe you would like to read it.

2 Therefore if you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any common sharing in the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, 2 then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and of one mind. 3 Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves, 4 not looking to your own interests but each of you to the interests of the others.

5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in very nature[a] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
Do Everything Without Grumbling

12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.

14 Do everything without grumbling or arguing, 15 so that you may become blameless and pure, “children of God without fault in a warped and crooked generation.”[c] Then you will shine among them like stars in the sky 16 as you hold firmly to the word of life. And then I will be able to boast on the day of Christ that I did not run or labor in vain. 17 But even if I am being poured out like a drink offering on the sacrifice and service coming from your faith, I am glad and rejoice with all of you. 18 So you too should be glad and rejoice with me.

I should add what he is talking about is the struggle to be come perfect in Christ while we are in a body with sin of Flesh.


Hebrews 6
4 For it is impossible to bring back to repentance those who were once enlightened—those who have experienced the good things of heaven and shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the power of the age to come— 6 and who then turn away from God. It is impossible to bring such people back to repentance; by rejecting the Son of God, they themselves are nailing him to the cross once again and holding him up to public shame.

So what your saying is Jesus death was not enough one time that we must ignore this passage and crucify Christ over and over again for are sins? That we are in a constant state of begging for forgiveness. Yeah that is not God.

I don't know if your aware but this is the baptist section. i take issue with many things from the catholic I guess this is just one more.

 

[98cwitr]

So if you don't understand this. it can be addressed here, figure i would just make a thread for it and be done with it once and for all.

Many people point to Hebrew 6 as you can lose your salvation, which they don't understand the passage. It says Taste of the fruit which is different than eating the fruit. It is sampling heaven, not accepting it.

Ok lets look at the word taste, her is the strongs in Greek.
Word: geuomai

Pronounce: ghyoo'-om-ahee

Strongs Number: G1089

Orig: a primary verb; to taste; by implication, to eat; figuratively, to experience (good or ill):--eat, taste.

Use: TDNT-1:675,117 Verb

Heb Strong: H1104 H2938 H3938

1) to taste, to try the flavour of
2) to taste
2a) i.e. perceive the flavour of, partake of, enjoy
2b) to feel, make trial of, experience
3) to take food, eat, to take nourishment, eat

2b is trail a trail of, experience this is what the word means.

Where in the Bible is an example? Take the story of judas and Peter. Judas tasted the fruit of heaven, he was right there with Jesus, how ever he did not accept it. When he ate the Passover meal satan enter his heart because Jesus was not in it. How do we Know judas was not saved well Jesus said.
John 17:12NLT
12 During my time here, I protected them by the power of the name you gave me.[c] I guarded them so that not one was lost, except the one headed for destruction, as the Scriptures foretold.

So here we see judas was never saved he was always headed to hell, Jesus said he had not lost one, so judas and judas was never his to lose in the first place.

So what was judas doing tasting the fruit of heaven he is who Hebrews 6 speaks of.

Take Peter accepted Jesus full heartily, Now judas when he turned from God he could never be brought back, would God have forgiven him? i think so, but he could never come back. so he took his own life. Now Peter also turned from God and was brought back. people who hold to you can lose you salvation say you loses it by turning from God. Well Peter turned as far as you could, yet because he was saved Jesus had been praying for him, Peter was restored, he was never lost. God does everything for a reason, he does nothing in vain. The story of Peter and judas is in there for a reason. and that is one of them.

So does the Bible support this OSAS as some call it, Yes.

John 6:35NLT

35 Jesus replied, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never be hungry again. Whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. 36 But you haven’t believed in me even though you have seen me. 37 However, those the Father has given me will come to me, and I will never reject them. 38 For I have come down from heaven to do the will of God who sent me, not to do my own will. 39 And this is the will of God, that I should not lose even one of all those he has given me, but that I should raise them up at the last day. 40 For it is my Father’s will that all who see his Son and believe in him should have eternal life. I will raise them up at the last day.”

1st thing line 37 I will Never Rejected them. That is pretty clear cut.
2Nd line 39 It is Gods will Jesus not lose one of all he has been given, and Jesus always does Gods will not to is a sin.

Those two points in the passage Never Reject, a Gods will Not to Lose one. Show that God does not loses his children. to preach other wises is to preach against the word of God.

So does this passage conflict with Hebrews 6, accourting to those who say you can lose salvation it does. But we Know scripture never conflicts. So What i have offer as Hebrew 6 that they were never Gods in the first place, But saw he was God and saw his glory Yet still rejected it. Now that explanation does not conflict with John.

If you have another explanation where it does not conflict with john6:35. I am all ears.

I hope this settles it, but I know it won't

 

[St Antony]

Philippians 2:12 speaks to what he just discussed not that you need to keep your salvation. You have to put it in context. maybe you would like to read it.

2 Therefore if you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any common sharing in the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, 2 then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and of one mind. 3 Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves, 4 not looking to your own interests but each of you to the interests of the others.

5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in very nature[a] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
Do Everything Without Grumbling

12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.

14 Do everything without grumbling or arguing, 15 so that you may become blameless and pure, “children of God without fault in a warped and crooked generation.”[c] Then you will shine among them like stars in the sky 16 as you hold firmly to the word of life. And then I will be able to boast on the day of Christ that I did not run or labor in vain. 17 But even if I am being poured out like a drink offering on the sacrifice and service coming from your faith, I am glad and rejoice with all of you. 18 So you too should be glad and rejoice with me.

I should add what he is talking about is the struggle to be come perfect in Christ while we are in a body with sin of Flesh.


Hebrews 6
4 For it is impossible to bring back to repentance those who were once enlightened—those who have experienced the good things of heaven and shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the power of the age to come— 6 and who then turn away from God. It is impossible to bring such people back to repentance; by rejecting the Son of God, they themselves are nailing him to the cross once again and holding him up to public shame.

So what your saying is Jesus death was not enough one time that we must ignore this passage and crucify Christ over and over again for are sins? That we are in a constant state of begging for forgiveness. Yeah that is not God.

I don't know if your aware but this is the baptist section. i take issue with many things from the catholic I guess this is just one more.

I think the section of Phillipians you quoted is a beautiful piece of Scripture and perfectly sums up what it means to live the Christian life, especially verses 2:3 and 2:4. Hebrews 6 is a difficult Scripture to understand; it makes the point that the Good News will not always fall on fertile ground. Sometimes, it will fall in shallow dirt or rocks and will blossom quickly by soon shrivel and die, or be choked by weeds and thistles. In these cases, people will not be saved. Hebrews 6:10-12 seems to go on and say that salvation is possible for those who fall away through God's grace, if they repent of their acts in falling away.

This Scripture, as well as Hebrews 10:26-31 and 2 Peter 2:20-22 became very contentious during the Roman persecutions when Christians, under threat of execution, fell away and denied Christ. Many who persevered cited these to argue that these lapsed Christians should never get a second chance. Fortunately (from my perspective), God's mercy and grace is avialable to sinners no matter how badly they have stumbled.

On one other comment: I believe Christ was crucified only one time for all time. The event is reenacted at mass and, as Catholics, we believe the bread and wine become the actual body and blood of Christ to be shared by his church, but regardless of your feelings on transubstantiation, we are crucifying him again.

 

[98cwitr]

Aren't you contradicting yourself in the last paragraph?

 

[Bluelion]

I think the section of Phillipians you quoted is a beautiful piece of Scripture and perfectly sums up what it means to live the Christian life, especially verses 2:3 and 2:4. Hebrews 6 is a difficult Scripture to understand; it makes the point that the Good News will not always fall on fertile ground. Sometimes, it will fall in shallow dirt or rocks and will blossom quickly by soon shrivel and die, or be choked by weeds and thistles. In these cases, people will not be saved. Hebrews 6:10-12 seems to go on and say that salvation is possible for those who fall away through God's grace, if they repent of their acts in falling away.

This Scripture, as well as Hebrews 10:26-31 and 2 Peter 2:20-22 became very contentious during the Roman persecutions when Christians, under threat of execution, fell away and denied Christ. Many who persevered cited these to argue that these lapsed Christians should never get a second chance. Fortunately (from my perspective), God's mercy and grace is avialable to sinners no matter how badly they have stumbled.

On one other comment: I believe Christ was crucified only one time for all time. The event is reenacted at mass and, as Catholics, we believe the bread and wine become the actual body and blood of Christ to be shared by his church, but regardless of your feelings on transubstantiation, we are crucifying him again.

Much of what you state I have already covered in the OP. I would point you again to Peter and judas to show you Hebrews 6 in work. Some one who sees God as he is and still rejects him can never be saved after that point. A person who is saved can reject God, but will be restored to their position as per John God does not loses his children.

Catholics are all over the place with what they believe. Point to you said Christ was crucified once and then said we do it to him over and over again. i am shock by that, to even suggest killing Christ over and over again is wickedness. i don't know about you, but I think i speak for all my brothers and sisters, i could not bare for Christ to go through it again, nor does he need to. i understand full well that Him being beaten beyond being human recognizable, Whip till his back look like raw meat and nail to the cross for death, that was all meant for me. i love him for it, i can not bare for Him to endure it a second time.

There is something really off with your thinking. offend is not even the right word just shock.

 

[jamantc]

For no one (meaning nothing, not satan who is less in power than God, not a prostitute, nothing) can snatch them from My Father's hands. No one comes to me except the Father draw them (I can't even come to Christ anytime I choose, I have to be drawn by the Spirit by God first). Before the foundation of the world was created you were known to Him and before the foundation of the world was created He planned out the good works you would do after being regenerated and coming to Him unto salvation by His drawing and working of the Spirit which testifies with our spirit that we are His. If the Spirit doesn't testify, we are simply not nor were we ever His. For an olive branch cannot bear grapes, nor a fig tree olives. Judas could not come back because Jesus told him one of the twelve was of his father, the devil. Thank God for saving me by His redemptive plan long before I was born! Grace should humble us and give us security in the knowledge that we are His and can never be removed from His presence when we have been saved, not by man who wills and who runs, but by God who wills and starts a good work in us to be finished by Him

 

[St Antony]

Much of what you state I have already covered in the OP. I would point you again to Peter and judas to show you Hebrews 6 in work. Some one who sees God as he is and still rejects him can never be saved after that point. A person who is saved can reject God, but will be restored to their position as per John God does not loses his children.

Catholics are all over the place with what they believe. Point to you said Christ was crucified once and then said we do it to him over and over again. i am shock by that, to even suggest killing Christ over and over again is wickedness. i don't know about you, but I think i speak for all my brothers and sisters, i could not bare for Christ to go through it again, nor does he need to. i understand full well that Him being beaten beyond being human recognizable, Whip till his back look like raw meat and nail to the cross for death, that was all meant for me. i love him for it, i can not bare for Him to endure it a second time.

There is something really off with your thinking. offend is not even the right word just shock.

Christ's message is supposed to bring us joy and a purpose in life! The idea that God has already decided everything and nothing we can do changes anything is a tremendously frightening thought! Condemning someone to everlasting hell without any opportunity to redeem themself is furthermore manifestly unjust, and we all know that God is righteous and just.

God gives us free will. For those of us who understand his message, we can choose to accept it, or not. We can repent , or not. We can follow Jesus, every day all day, or not. It is up to us and if we go to hell, we have no one to blame but ourselves. God is all knowing and already knows what we will do and where we will end up, but it is still our choice.

God's plan of salvation can be described like this: Say a man falls overboard from a ship at sea. Someone throws him a rope. The man can choose to either grab the rope tight and be lifted out of the water, or not. If he won't accept the rope, then he drowns. The man overboard is a sinner (all of us) and the rope is the grace of God through the death and resurrection of Jesus. As sinners we have the free will to either grab that rope or not!

The Catechism says it best:
1730 God created man a rational being, conferring on him the dignity of a person who can initiate and control his own actions. “God willed that man should be ‘left in the hand of his own counsel,’ so that he might of his own accord seek his Creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him.”

Man is rational and therefore like God; he is created with free will and is master over his acts.
​

I. Freedom and Responsibility

1731 Freedom is the power, rooted in reason and will, to act or not to act, to do this or that, and so to perform deliberate actions on one’s own responsibility. By free will one shapes one’s own life. Human freedom is a force for growth and maturity in truth and goodness; it attains its perfection when directed toward God, our beatitude.
1732 As long as freedom has not bound itself definitively to its ultimate good which is God, there is the possibility of choosing between good and evil, and thus of growing in perfection or of failing and sinning. This freedom characterizes properly human acts. It is the basis of praise or blame, merit or reproach.

St Iraneus, St. Augustine, John Chysostom and John Cassian are all prominent early Christian theologians who discussed at length free will and man's ability to choose to accept God's free gift of grace and salvation.

 

[Bluelion]

Christ's message is supposed to bring us joy and a purpose in life! The idea that God has already decided everything and nothing we can do changes anything is a tremendously frightening thought! Condemning someone to everlasting hell without any opportunity to redeem themself is furthermore manifestly unjust, and we all know that God is righteous and just.

God gives us free will. For those of us who understand his message, we can choose to accept it, or not. We can repent , or not. We can follow Jesus, every day all day, or not. It is up to us and if we go to hell, we have no one to blame but ourselves. God is all knowing and already knows what we will do and where we will end up, but it is still our choice.

God's plan of salvation can be described like this: Say a man falls overboard from a ship at sea. Someone throws him a rope. The man can choose to either grab the rope tight and be lifted out of the water, or not. If he won't accept the rope, then he drowns. The man overboard is a sinner (all of us) and the rope is the grace of God through the death and resurrection of Jesus. As sinners we have the free will to either grab that rope or not!

The Catechism says it best:
1730 God created man a rational being, conferring on him the dignity of a person who can initiate and control his own actions. “God willed that man should be ‘left in the hand of his own counsel,’ so that he might of his own accord seek his Creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him.”

Man is rational and therefore like God; he is created with free will and is master over his acts.
​

I. Freedom and Responsibility

1731 Freedom is the power, rooted in reason and will, to act or not to act, to do this or that, and so to perform deliberate actions on one’s own responsibility. By free will one shapes one’s own life. Human freedom is a force for growth and maturity in truth and goodness; it attains its perfection when directed toward God, our beatitude.
1732 As long as freedom has not bound itself definitively to its ultimate good which is God, there is the possibility of choosing between good and evil, and thus of growing in perfection or of failing and sinning. This freedom characterizes properly human acts. It is the basis of praise or blame, merit or reproach.

St Iraneus, St. Augustine, John Chysostom and John Cassian are all prominent early Christian theologians who discussed at length free will and man's ability to choose to accept God's free gift of grace and salvation.

Your problem is you said its in our hands it is not. We make a choice god or not from then on it is up to God to keep us, we can not keep our own salvation.

If your going to quote a book quote the Bible.

 

[Keachian]

Your problem is you said its in our hands it is not. We make a choice god or not from then on it is up to God to keep us, we can not keep our own salvation.

If your going to quote a book quote the Bible.

Why would God leave something as crucial to his plan as our choosing him up to us? As has been quoted earlier the Father draws we who are being sanctified to him, it is nothing in myself so that I may boast. God is the author of my Salvation from beginning to the end.

 

[Keachian]

Nope, God never lies but you assume a person becomes one of His (Elect) at the time of their profession of faith.

All the Elect will make a profession of faith, but not all who make a profession of faith are of the Elect.

If a person's profession of faith in sincere, and they died at that moment, then they would definitely be saved, but if they sin after that time and don't repent, then they are no longer saved.

All the Elect will continue to repent of sins, but not all who repent of sin are of the Elect.

Salvation is a free gift from God, but we as men as required to act on the grace He offers. We must believe, repent of our sins and strive everyday to follow the commands of Jesus found in the Gospel. You are right, man unassisted can't hope to follow the law, but we aren't unassisted. Jesus is with us every step of the way.

This is true and I am reminded of the words of St. Paul;
For you have been saved by grace, through faith, and this is not your own doing but a gift of God, not a result of works such that no man can boast. We are his workmanship created again in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, such that we might walk in them -- Eph 2:8-10

If we slip up, as everyone will since all fall short of the glory of God, they God lets us repent, show contrition for our wrong, and once again be in a state of grace with Him.

God, through his indwelling Spirit will cause the Elect to repent, if he so wills the non-Elect will repent, but this is merely a staying of his Judgment to come and he will surely pour out his wrath upon those vessels which he has reserved for it.

 

[SeventhValley]

God chooses the path of nations but warns us as individuals not to fall away. If we are not responsible for good we cannot be held responsible for evil as both would be God's will and Jesus'a death would be in vain if that were the case.

 

[Keachian]

God chooses the path of nations but warns us as individuals not to fall away. If we are not responsible for good we cannot be held responsible for evil as both would be God's will and Jesus'a death would be in vain if that were the case.

God hardened Pharaoh's heart, orchestrated the crucifixion and chose St. Paul's path. Those are examples of God willing both evil and good in an individual's life, you would have us believe that God left it to chance that his wrath be poured out against Pharaoh in a way that points us to Christ, that God left it to chance that evil men would crucify the Lord and in so doing the Lord would make atonement for us, that God left it to chance that the Scriptures would be written.