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the particular baptist

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Mr Spurgeon on the topic,

But there are one or two acts of God which, while they certainly are decreed as much as other things, yet they bear such a special relation to God’s predestination that it is rather difficult to say whether they were done in eternity or whether they were done in time. Election is one of those things which were done absolutely in eternity; all who were elect, were elect as much in eternity as they are in time. But you may say, Does the like affirmation apply to adoption or justification?

My late eminent and now glorified predecessor, Dr. Gill, diligently studying these doctrines, said that adoption was the act of God in eternity, and that as all believers were elect in eternity, so beyond a doubt they were adopted in eternity. He further than that to include the doctrine of justification and he said that inasmuch as Jesus Christ was before all worlds justified by his Father, and accepted by him as our representative, therefore all the elect must have been justified in Christ from before all worlds.

Now, I believe there is a great deal of truth in what he said, though there was a considerable outcry raised against him at the time he first uttered it. However, that being a high and mysterious point, we would have you accept the doctrine that all those who are saved at last were elect in eternity when the means as well the end were determined. With regard to adoption, I believe we were predestined hereunto in eternity, but I do think there are some points with regard to adoption which will not allow me to consider the act of adoption to have been completed in eternity.

For instance, the positive translation of my soul from a state of nature into a state of grace is a part of adoption or at least it is an effect at it, and so close an effect that it really seems to be a part of adoption itself: I believe that this was designed, and in fact that it was virtually carried out in God’s everlasting covenant; but I think that it was that actually then brought to pass in all its fullness. So with regard to justification, I must hold, that in the moment when Jesus Christ paid my debts, my debts were cancelled — in the hour when he worked out for me a perfect righteousness it was imputed to me, and therefore I may as a believer say I was complete in Christ before I was born, accepted in Jesus, even as Levi was blessed in the loins of Abraham by Melchisedec; but I know likewise that justification is described in the Scriptures as passing upon me at the time I believe. “Being justified by faith,” I am told “I have peace with God, through Jesus Christ.”

I think, therefore that adoption and justification, while they have a very great alliance with eternity, and were virtually done then, yet have both of them such a near relation to us in time, and such a bearing upon our own personal standing and character that they have also a part and parcel of themselves actually carried out and performed in time in the heart of every believer. I may be wrong in this exposition; it requires much more time to study this subject than I have been able yet to give to it, seeing that my years are not yet many; I shall no doubt by degrees come to the knowledge more fully of such high and mysterious points of gospel doctrine. But nevertheless, while I find the majority of sound divines holding that the works of justification and adoption are due in our lives I see, on the other hand, in Scripture much to lead me to believe that both of them were done in eternity; and I think the fairest view of the case is, that while they were virtually done in eternity, yet both adoption and justification are actually passed upon us, in our proper persons, consciences, and experiences, in time, — so that both the Westminster confession and the idea of Dr. Gill can be proved to be Scriptural, and we may hold them both without any prejudice the one to the other.

from Mr Spurgeon's sermon "Adoption", Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit Vol. 7
 
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That's why I use the term Strict & Particular Baptist or Predestinarian.

Would you mind a few short remarks on the difference between Strict and Particular Baptist or Predestinarian? Any level of detail would be acceptable, as I am unfamiliar with the terms and figure I'll get a better answer form you than randomly searching the Internet.

Thanks in Advance,

Faith.Man (aka Bob)
 
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JM

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Historically...the roots are different. Baptist may agree with the TULIP but, historically, we tend to be supra and higher "Calvinists." Calvin isn't the bar from which we measure our understanding of the doctrines of grace.
 
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student ad x

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From Berkhof: Eternal Justification

Justification does not precede God's calling or faith in the ordo salutis.
 
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student ad x

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AND I agree with Mikey's post
 
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JM

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You quote someone, I quote someone...Berkhof doesn't agree with who I quote. Ok. Does that, in itself, invalidate what I believe the Bible teaches? Berkhof doesn't agree with me on Baptism and the Lord's Supper, does that invalidate what I believe the Bible teaches?

Does it invalidate what you believe the Bible teaches? Do you agree with heymikey on Baptism and the Lord's Supper?

Nope.

Baptists need to start thinking these things out. We are the ones who are "heirs to the puritans." We are the biblicists.

jm
 
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DeaconDean

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Baptists need to start thinking these things out. We are the ones who are "heirs to the puritans." We are the biblicists.

jm

Hey now, I'm a Baptist.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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JM

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I'm not trying to be rude, harsh or disrespectful, but Reformed theology is helpful when viewed in its proper light. It's not the bar from which all theological truth is measured...scripture is.
 
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DeaconDean

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I'm not trying to be rude, harsh or disrespectful, but Reformed theology is helpful when viewed in its proper light. It's not the bar from which all theological truth is measured...scripture is.

Never said it was.

But I do know Reformed Theology is based on scripture.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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JM

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Never said it was.

But I do know Reformed Theology is based on scripture.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Some of it. Reformed theology includes sacramentalism and infant baptism.
 
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cygnusx1

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Historically...the roots are different. Baptist may agree with the TULIP but, historically, we tend to be supra and higher "Calvinists." Calvin isn't the bar from which we measure our understanding of the doctrines of grace.


saw a documenntary on Westboro Baptists last night , they filmed in the chapel , I noticed TULIP hanging on the wall just next to the preacher , later they showed a row of large pictures of Calvinist Theologians including Gill ... made me feel sick and uneasy , some are going to think all Baptists are nuts , and as for Calvinists , they even had a quote directed at them from Romans 9 , they cannot have ever read the first few verses . Where is the love in laughing and singing of mens destruction .... outragious.
 
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DeaconDean

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Well, I can't speak for all baptists, but this is one Baptist who has been educated in Reformed Theology with heavy emphasis on scripture.

I know of no theology, no demonination, no theologian who was 100% right 100% of the time except Jesus Christ.

I just so happen to see where John Smyth founded the Baptist faith in Calvinist beliefs.

And John Smyth did not believe we were justified in God's mind or eye from eternity past.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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JM

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John Smyth left the separatist congregation he founded and become a Mennonite so yah, he probably did not believe in a lot of Baptist doctrine, besides...those that follow Smyth where not "Calvinists." They became known as General Baptists.

Jesus Christ, as federal head of His people, paid for their sins. At the very least, since the time of the cross, God does not view His people as sinful. Num. 23.21

"...objective justification sealed in the resurrection of Christ, which, in order precedes subjective justification..." Herman Hoeksema, Reformed Dogmatics

jm
 
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DeaconDean

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Say what you want, but out of his own mouth, rather, by his own pen he declares that men are not "eternally justified":


Short Confession of Faith in 20 Articles, John Smyth, 1609

Ta-da

Now if you wish to keep arguing, be my guest.

I can see that you have singled me out, so rather than say something I might regret, I'll just say:

"The LORD bless thee, and keep thee: The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee: The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace." -Num. 6:24-26 (KJV)

Unsubscribing.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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student ad x

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Baptists need to start thinking these things out. We are the ones who are "heirs to the puritans." We are the biblicists.

jm

............. but Reformed theology is helpful when viewed in its proper light. It's not the bar from which all theological truth is measured...scripture is.
I have way too much respect for my Presbyterian and Reformed friends to put Baptists on a pedestal....... esp. in this forum. Whether I agree with Mikey or anyone else Presbyterian on the sub-lapsarian view of God's decrees makes little difference to my view, from Scripture, on the ordinances. Mikey and even AMR knows that. I find the justification from eternity view a slippery slope, just as I expressed in my first post on this thread. With the 2nd I quoted the "Reformed Confessions". With the 3rd (after numerous links and a quote of Spurgeon) I quoted and linked Berkhof , who is probably the pre-eminent semi-contemporary "Reformed" Theologian.

"And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified"
 
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JM

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[Dean, don't become guilty of hero worship, Smyth wasn't a Baptist...he was a Mennonite. What we know as Baptist today may find some association with Smyth but he applied and died a Mennonite.]

Ok, we can agree to disagree and pray God unites us on this and other issues in heaven.

j
 
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Now if you wish to keep arguing, be my guest.

There is a difference of opinion within Baptist and Presbyterian/Reformed circles on eternal justification. Some theologians held to it, some did not. When reading theological statements of yester-year it is important to place them within their historical context in that those who were rejecting EJ were generally writing against the radical antinomians who argued that since we have been justified in eternity we can do what we want now and so the orthodox theologians were emphasizing the subjective and temporal aspect of justification whilst downplaying the eternal aspect.
 
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JM

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Good point. But if you mentioned Crisp as an antinomanian...it's on! (kidding) Crisp clearly preaches the third use of the Law in his sermons.
 
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