Epistle to the Hebrews

[NaturalSinner]

For those who'd love to discuss the book of Hebrews.

 

[faroukfarouk]

For those who'd love to discuss the book of Hebrews.

A key word in Hebrews is 'better'.

In other words, it occurs again and again, and it shows how all the Lord Jesus is in His blest Person, glorious titles and finished work at the Cross, is 'better' than anything that came before under the Old Testament or could ever be.

A truly wonderful Epistle!

 

[NaturalSinner]

A key word in Hebrews is 'better'.

In other words, it occurs again and again, and it shows how all the Lord Jesus is in His blest Person, glorious titles and finished work at the Cross, is 'better' than anything that came before under the Old Testament or could ever be.

A truly wonderful Epistle!

Hebrews 11:1

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Hebrews 11:1

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Yes, 'by faith' is another key phrase of Hebrews, especially in chapter 11.

 

[NaturalSinner]

Yes, 'by faith' is another key phrase of Hebrews, especially in chapter 11.

I find it amazing that God's son Jesus became human so that he could show God to us. As in exodus 3, God spoke to Moses from the burning bush. He also spoke to the Hebrews in different ways such as he gave them dreams and sent angels. He also used events to teach his people.

 

[Steve Petersen]

For those who'd love to discuss the book of Hebrews.

Give these a try. This is a perspective you probably haven't heard before:

http://www.bethimmanuel.org/audio-series/holy-epistle-to-the-hebrews

 

[faroukfarouk]

I find it amazing that God's son Jesus became human so that he could show God to us. As in exodus 3, God spoke to Moses from the burning bush. He also spoke to the Hebrews in different ways such as he gave them dreams and sent angels. He also used events to teach his people.

Yes, as chapter 2 verse 7 of Hebrews says, He 'became for a little time lower than the angels for the suffering of death'. He is now 'crowned with glory and honor'.

 

[Steve Petersen]

Yes, as chapter 2 verse 7 of Hebrews says, He 'became for a little time lower than the angels for the suffering of death'. He is now 'crowned with glory and honor'.

One must descend to ascend, as David fleeing Absalom, into the Kidron Valley and up the Mount of Olives.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Hebrews 11:1

...

PS:

NaturalSinner:

...and you know, another really significant thing about Hebrews chapter 11 is where it leads to: at the beginning of Hebrews 12, the writer asserts in verse 2 that in the light of all those examples from the Old Testament of those who lived by faith, we should therefore keep 'looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our Faith, Who for the joy that was set before Him, endured the Cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God'.

 

[Gregory the NonTheologian]

Give these a try. This is a perspective you probably haven't heard before:

http://www.bethimmanuel.org/audio-series/holy-epistle-to-the-hebrews

There were 46 videos on that site ranging from 30 to 50 minutes. I am sure they are all worthwhile, but could you summarize for us what you think are their most important points?

 

[Steve Petersen]

There were 46 videos on that site ranging from 30 to 50 minutes. I am sure they are all worthwhile, but could you summarize for us what you think are their most important points?

Ouch! Hebrews was probably written before the destruction of the Temple. Believers in Jerusalem were zealous for the Torah and usually in the Temple courts (Solomon's Porch.) At some point, they got tossed out and could not participate in the temple rituals. Hebrews was written as a consolation.

 

[Steve Petersen]

The existence of the Temple and its rituals in no way diminishes the efficacy of Jesus death and the heavenly temple, because each temple is appropriate in its own venue and is efficacious in different spheres: temporal and eternal.

 

[Gregory the NonTheologian]

The existence of the Temple and its rituals in no way diminishes the efficacy of Jesus death and the heavenly temple, because each temple is appropriate in its own venue and is efficacious in different spheres: temporal and eternal.

You are speaking of "the Temple" in the present tense. Wasn't the Temple destroyed in 70 AD?

 

[Steve Petersen]

You are speaking of "the Temple" in the present tense. Wasn't the Temple destroyed in 70 AD?

The writer of Hebrews was speaking of the Temple in the present tense, indicating it was written before 70 AD.

 

[Gregory the NonTheologian]

The writer of Hebrews was speaking of the Temple in the present tense, indicating it was written before 70 AD.

Oh - I thought you were writing about the Temple today

 

[Gregory the NonTheologian]

Ouch! Hebrews was probably written before the destruction of the Temple. Believers in Jerusalem were zealous for the Torah and usually in the Temple courts (Solomon's Porch.) At some point, they got tossed out and could not participate in the temple rituals. Hebrews was written as a consolation.

I don't believe that Hebrews is a consolation for Jews who could no longer worship in the Temple. It is, rather, in my opinion, encouragement for those in Palestine undergoing persecution as well as a complete rebuttal of Judaism as an obsolete religion. I believe that this is the way that the Church Fathers also understood the letter. This certainly seems to be the mindset of Justin Martyr in his dialog with Trypho the Jew, written sometime in the early 2nd century, as well as in other early writings such as the Epistle to Diognetus and the Epistle of Barnabas.

 

[Steve Petersen]

I don't believe that Hebrews is a consolation for Jews who could no longer worship in the Temple. It is, rather, in my opinion, encouragement for those in Palestine undergoing persecution as well as a complete rebuttal of Judaism as an obsolete religion. I believe that this is the way that the Church Fathers also understood the letter. This certainly seems to be the mindset of Justin Martyr in his dialog with Trypho the Jew, written sometime in the early 2nd century, as well as in other early writings such as the Epistle to Diognetus and the Epistle of Barnabas.

I concur that this is the opinion nearly universally in the Christian world. What if that perspective is wrong?

 

[Gregory the NonTheologian]

I concur that this is the opinion nearly universally in the Christian world. What if that perspective is wrong?

Before I answer, could you clearly state what you believe the correct perspective is? Is the proposition that Hebrews was written to console those Jews who believed in Christ because they were no longer permitted to worship in the Temple? That is what I understand, but I don't want to start a dialog on the basis of a straw man.

 

[Steve Petersen]

Before I answer, could you clearly state what you believe the correct perspective is? Is the proposition that Hebrews was written to console those Jews who believed in Christ because they were no longer permitted to worship in the Temple? That is what I understand, but I don't want to start a dialog on the basis of a straw man.

Yes, I think that is the nub of it; along with this is the possibility that they were 'cut off' from the rest of the Jewish community by the rulers in the Sanhedrin (possibly by the direction of the Sadduccean priesthood.)

 

[Gregory the NonTheologian]

Is the proposition that Hebrews was written to console those Jews who believed in Christ because they were no longer permitted to worship in the Temple?

Yes, I think that is the nub of it; along with this is the possibility that they were 'cut off' from the rest of the Jewish community by the rulers in the Sanhedrin (possibly by the direction of the Sadduccean priesthood.)

After a little thought, I don't think that it makes any difference to us what the author's perspective was. I conclude this for the following reasons:

(a) Hebrews was first included in the New Testament canon by the Church at the local Council of Carthage in 397 (although it is clear that the book was circulating among Christians locally before that). It was eventually confirmed as part of the canon for the universal Church (i.e. all dioceses of all 5 Sees) at the 7th Ecumenical Council in 787.

(b) Based on the writings of the Apostolic Fathers and later Church Fathers, it is clear that the Church no longer saw Judaism as it continued after the destruction of the Temple as being relevant to Christians

(c) Hebrews would not have been included in the New Testament canon, were it contrary to other Apostolic teachings, as passed down and interpreted by the Church Fathers

(d) Therefore, a hermeneutic which presumes that Judaism is no longer relevant for Christians is still proper for exegesis of Hebrews, even if the writer himself did not hold this particular belief.

I admit that it seems extremely unlikely that the author of Hebrews "wrote the right thing for the wrong reasons", which is why I doubt he held the views you are proposing.

In any case, I haven't given this terribly deep thought, so I would be happy to explore my argument.