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Epistle of St. Paul to the Romulans

cloudyday2

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One thing that I have always disliked about most forms of Christian theology is the central place occupied by humans. Some denominations teach that animals will not go to heaven, because they were not made in the image of God or don't have a soul. People who believe in evolution must consider the problem of when hominids acquired original sin, souls, etc. There are intelligent animals living on Earth such as parrots, dolphins, cats, dogs, chimpanzees. Someday humans might even colonize another planet. Does the second coming of Jesus apply only to humans on Earth or will it also apply to humans living on a terraformed Mars? Lastly, in all likelihood there is intelligent life on other planets somewhere in our universe. How does the second coming of Jesus affect them? Was there a Romulan Jesus to wash away their sins or do we humans need to spread the good news about our Earthly Jesus to the Romulans?

Any thoughts?
 

oi_antz

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One thing that I have always disliked about most forms of Christian theology is the central place occupied by humans. Some denominations teach that animals will not go to heaven, because they were not made in the image of God or don't have a soul. People who believe in evolution must consider the problem of when hominids acquired original sin, souls, etc. There are intelligent animals living on Earth such as parrots, dolphins, cats, dogs, chimpanzees. Someday humans might even colonize another planet. Does the second coming of Jesus apply only to humans on Earth or will it also apply to humans living on a terraformed Mars? Lastly, in all likelihood there is intelligent life on other planets somewhere in our universe. How does the second coming of Jesus affect them? Was there a Romulan Jesus to wash away their sins or do we humans need to spread the good news about our Earthly Jesus to the Romulans?

Any thoughts?
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=preach+every+creature&qs_version=NKJV

My thoughts are that Jesus has His people in all nations.
 
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cloudyday2

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Mark 16:14-16 NKJV
14 Later He appeared to the eleven as they sat at the table; and He rebuked their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they did not believe those who had seen Him after He had risen. 15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+16:14-16&version=NKJV

It's interesting that according to the story about Cornelius in Acts, Peter is surprised that the gospel applies to Gentiles in addition to Jews.

I see a few possibilities:
- Romulans don't have souls because they aren't human
- Romulans don't sin
- Romulans are saved through some other means - maybe a Romulan incarnation of God
- Romulans need to be saved through the Jewish Jesus - just like Gentiles
 
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oi_antz

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Mark 16:14-16 NKJV

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+16:14-16&version=NKJV

It's interesting that according to the story about Cornelius in Acts, Peter is surprised that the gospel applies to Gentiles in addition to Jews.

I see a few possibilities:
- Romulans don't have souls because they aren't human
Do you have evidence for this?
- Romulans don't sin
I ask two questions:
Do they obey God 100%?
Will they serve Jesus Christ?
- Romulans are saved through some other means - maybe a Romulan incarnation of God
What will happen when their Christ meets the human Christ?
- Romulans need to be saved through the Jewish Jesus - just like Gentiles
What do you mean by saying "saved through"?
 
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cloudyday2

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Do you have evidence for this?
Not sure what you mean.

I ask two questions:
Do they obey God 100%?
Will they serve Jesus Christ?
Judging from Star Trek they are a lot like humans except for the pointy ears.

What will happen when their Christ meets the human Christ?
Same as when God the Son meets God the Father I suppose?

What do you mean by saying "saved through"?
Same as it means for humans. (See the verse in Mark 16:14-16 quoted above as an example.)
 
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cloudyday2

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aiki

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Does the second coming of Jesus apply only to humans on Earth or will it also apply to humans living on a terraformed Mars?

Aren't you assuming Jesus will return after we've terraformed Mars? What if he returns before (which seems very likely to me)?

Inasmuch as Jesus died for the sins of all humanity past, present, and future, a human's physical position in the universe should not make any difference to the efficacy of Christ's atonement for their sin and their need to accept him as Saviour and Lord. Jesus' redemptive sacrifice was not location-specific but human-specific.

Lastly, in all likelihood there is intelligent life on other planets somewhere in our universe. How does the second coming of Jesus affect them? Was there a Romulan Jesus to wash away their sins or do we humans need to spread the good news about our Earthly Jesus to the Romulans?

Any thoughts?

Kinda' bored, are you? What God did through the sacrifice of Christ on the cross responded to the Fall of Man in Eden. It is because you and I are descended from Adam and under the curse his sin brought upon all humanity that we require the salvation offered to us in Jesus. As I said, Jesus' atonement was human-specific. It wouldn't, it seems to me, then, be applicable to all life found anywhere in the universe. However, the God who created you and I would be the only God to create any and all other life in the universe. It follows, then, that the revelation He has made of Himself to us would be fundamentally the same revelation He would make of Himself to any similar life He might have created elsewhere in the cosmos.

Selah.
 
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oi_antz

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Regarding the earth idea that aiki has stated, the most prevalent by far, totally human-centric view of life etc. Scriptures state that all creation groans under sin. The passage in my signature (have you noticed) describes that paradise is for the animals too.

But do you know what that view of the gospel implies? Animals are therefore not merely property to treat for one's convenience. That is too inconvenient for most people to accept.
Not sure what you mean.
Do you have evidence that Romulans have no soul?
Judging from Star Trek they are a lot like humans except for the pointy ears.
Do you trust Star Trek to be 100% truthful in their representation of the Romulans? I know it is fiction actually. Please use real examples when discussing real truth.
Same as when God the Son meets God the Father I suppose?
That happened long before then world was made! The son 100% submits to the will of the father, as per the fifth commandment.
Same as it means for humans. (See the verse in Mark 16:14-16 quoted above as an example.)
Warning bells! You should fill that knowledge gap before continuing.
 
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oi_antz

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Just to clarify: Christ's atonement for sin was just for humans. God's redemption of Creation corrupted by human sin encompasses all of what He has made.

Selah.
This is true. The scriptures indicate that the fruit from the tree of life was offered to humans, and barred due to their disobedience. The promise of salvation is that Jesus will give the right to eat of the fruit (revelation 2:7). There is no mention about animals having access to that fruit. Maybe if they are victorious per rev 2:7, He will give them that right. Who actually knows?
 
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cloudyday2

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Just to clarify: Christ's atonement for sin was just for humans. God's redemption of Creation corrupted by human sin encompasses all of what He has made.

Selah.

This is true. The scriptures indicate that the fruit from the tree of life was offered to humans, and barred due to their disobedience. The promise of salvation is that Jesus will give the right to eat of the fruit (revelation 2:7). There is no mention about animals having access to that fruit. Maybe if they are victorious per rev 2:7, He will give them that right. Who actually knows?

Hmmm. Many Christians understand the Garden of Eden to be a myth with a religious meaning. My personal interpretation was that eating the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil represented human desire to be gods and make our own moral judgments. This sin is a natural tendency of every human and happens every day - not a crime we inherited from a common male and female ancestor. God's intention is for us to submit our will to his will until over time we learn that God's will is right. Then God can allow us to reach whatever potential he originally intended. The role of Jesus is to show us how we should submit our will to God so that we realize that we have failed utterly - that way we are motivated to be reconciled with God through the mercy of Jesus (?) (Some of the details are a bit fuzzy.)

Now with that interpretation, the Romulans probably have the same tendency to ignore God's will, so they need Jesus too. St. Peter might have thought that only Jews had the Law of Moses , so only Jews needed atonement. Gentiles were not under the Law. Obviously that was not how it worked according to the story of Cornelius. So I think Romulans would be just another type of Gentile. The Bible would need to be translated into Romulanese. A modern St. Paul might need to travel the galaxy establishing churches. Etc.
 
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aiki

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Well, Paul the apostle regarded Adam and Eve as real people and the Fall of Man in Eden as a real event. He did not treat what happened in Eden as a mythological or figurative story. And his theology and doctrine, that occupies nearly half of the New Testament, rests in no small part upon the fact of the Fall.

1 Corinthians 15:21-22
21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.


2 Corinthians 11:3
3 But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

Romans 5:12-15
12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned--
13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man's offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many.


1 Timothy 2:13-14
13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.


Selah.
 
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cloudyday2

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Well, Paul the apostle regarded Adam and Eve as real people and the Fall of Man in Eden as a real event. He did not treat what happened in Eden as a mythological or figurative story. And his theology and doctrine, that occupies nearly half of the New Testament, rests in no small part upon the fact of the Fall.

Probably Paul believed in celestial spheres spinning around Earth with heaven literally above the highest sphere and sheol literally within the Earth.

Maybe Christianity was working for Paul and the early Christians in spite of their literal understanding of Adam and Eve? Maybe God didn't think the details were as important as their attitude?
 
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oi_antz

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Hmmm. Many Christians understand the Garden of Eden to be a myth with a religious meaning. My personal interpretation was that eating the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil represented human desire to be gods and make our own moral judgments. This sin is a natural tendency of every human and happens every day - not a crime we inherited from a common male and female ancestor.
We can consider it that way, and come to conclusions accordingly. But that is not what Genesis says, and we do not know how seriously we ought to regard Genesis information.
God's intention is for us to submit our will to his will until over time we learn that God's will is right. Then God can allow us to reach whatever potential he originally intended.
Definitely, I think you grasp the gospel better than most Christians do.
The role of Jesus is to show us how we should submit our will to God so that we realize that we have failed utterly - that way we are motivated to be reconciled with God through the mercy of Jesus (?) (Some of the details are a bit fuzzy.)
It is this:

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

Trust in the Lord with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding; In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He shall direct your paths.

To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God.”’
Now with that interpretation, the Romulans probably have the same tendency to ignore God's will, so they need Jesus too. St. Peter might have thought that only Jews had the Law of Moses , so only Jews needed atonement.
It is difficult to gauge why St Peter was surprised. If I had have to guess, it would be that the kingdom of God was promised to Israel, the descendent of Abraham who is the father of many nations. Jesus had always said His interests were to bring Israel into worship of God as they were expected, to redeem them from gog and magog, yet He did prophesy this covenant would come to an end. It is possible St Peter did not put two and two together, yet we can because we have easy access to those records. Here is the prophecy I mention (read the whole conversation, it's the summary of the entire purpose of Jesus Christ): https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+21:43&version=NLT
Gentiles were not under the Law. Obviously that was not how it worked according to the story of Cornelius. So I think Romulans would be just another type of Gentile. The Bible would need to be translated into Romulanese. A modern St. Paul might need to travel the galaxy establishing churches. Etc.
This is an interesting topic. There is both scripture that states in the post-Jesus era, Jehova writes His law on our hearts, yet there is scripture from St Paul that states the sacrificial atonement rituals were a "caretaker" until Christ came. So some of the old testament law applies to gentiles through conscience listening to what God says to us when He speaks to us (His living Word - not just the bible), whereas some of the old testament law is replaced by Jesus Christ, as the high priest who handles the atonement instead of the Levite priesthood. Do you remember St Paul speaking about how "if one person feels it is sin, then it is sin to them", yet "if my consicence is strong, but eating meat causes my brother to stumble, I will refrain from eating meat"? .. so clearly, we are meant to be intimate with God and following as He leads us, as always BTW, but in the New Testament era we have confidence that indeed death has been overcome.

I think any speculation about alien species is only hypothetical until we actually get reliable information to be certain of these particular questions.
 
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ViaCrucis

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One thing that I have always disliked about most forms of Christian theology is the central place occupied by humans. Some denominations teach that animals will not go to heaven, because they were not made in the image of God or don't have a soul. People who believe in evolution must consider the problem of when hominids acquired original sin, souls, etc. There are intelligent animals living on Earth such as parrots, dolphins, cats, dogs, chimpanzees. Someday humans might even colonize another planet. Does the second coming of Jesus apply only to humans on Earth or will it also apply to humans living on a terraformed Mars? Lastly, in all likelihood there is intelligent life on other planets somewhere in our universe. How does the second coming of Jesus affect them? Was there a Romulan Jesus to wash away their sins or do we humans need to spread the good news about our Earthly Jesus to the Romulans?

Any thoughts?

In St. Paul's letter to the Romans (ch. 8 specifically) he speaks of all creation longing for redemption. In the book of the Prophet Isaiah he speaks of a coming time when God will make a new heavens and a new earth, this is referenced again by St. John of Patmos in the Apocalypse. From an orthodox Christian perspective we are looking forward to the Age to Come, that is the renewal and restoration of all things, all creation being made new, made whole by God in Christ, forever.

This means all creation, from the smallest subatomic particles that make up our bodies to the most distant and largest galactic clusters. From single-celled algae to blue whales.

The question of whether or not non-human animals have "souls", or more specifically if individual animals have a place in the Age to Come is simply not a question Scripture provides an answer for; that animals are part of the new creation is, to me, completely obvious. That there will be dogs in the Age to Come is certain, that my dog Tiki will be there is not certain--though I would certainly hope so. I would also entertain the notion that all that has been lost will be restored, all species which have ever lived will by no means be lost forever, there is a place for every creature in God's future world. This would also extend to hypothetical life elsewhere in the cosmos.

Scripture, because it was written by humans for humans, is quite naturally going to come from a human perspective. Scripture is the narrative of God's engagement with humanity and human history culminating in Jesus Christ. Scripture indeed speaks of the renewal and restoration of all creation, of all things, but doesn't tell us more than what is pertinent for us. But we can be confident that God's purposes for creation will be fulfilled, as He promised, and that this is for all creation. How and in what way that all plays out is known only to Him.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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I see a few possibilities:
- Romulans don't have souls because they aren't human
- Romulans don't sin
- Romulans are saved through some other means - maybe a Romulan incarnation of God
- Romulans need to be saved through the Jewish Jesus - just like Gentiles

I'd reject the first option, but the last three have been entertained by some. My position would be the last. The way I see it would be like this:

The Incarnation took place at a particular point in space-time. Jesus was a Jewish male born to Mary. Yet Jesus isn't Savior of males only, but men and women; not just Jews, but Gentiles also. So the Christian view is what took place in a small corner of the globe is for everyone. It is not, from there, difficult to simply up the scale. On a tiny planet orbiting an uninteresting star amidst billions of stars on an arm of a not-so-unique spiral galaxy within a local group of galaxies among billions of galaxies in the observable universe.

If there are Romulans Jesus is for the Romulans as well.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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cloudyday2

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I'd reject the first option, but the last three have been entertained by some. My position would be the last. The way I see it would be like this:

The Incarnation took place at a particular point in space-time. Jesus was a Jewish male born to Mary. Yet Jesus isn't Savior of males only, but men and women; not just Jews, but Gentiles also. So the Christian view is what took place in a small corner of the globe is for everyone. It is not, from there, difficult to simply up the scale. On a tiny planet orbiting an uninteresting star amidst billions of stars on an arm of a not-so-unique spiral galaxy within a local group of galaxies among billions of galaxies in the observable universe.

If there are Romulans Jesus is for the Romulans as well.

-CryptoLutheran

Now we need to consider species that are less human-like than Romulans. One Christian tradition holds that John the Baptist witnesses the gospel to people who did not hear it - people who lived before the time of Jesus or whatever. So do deceased homo erectus individuals need to hear the gospel? How about dolphins? How about crows?

In other words, what attribute makes the gospel necessary for an individual?
- physical descent from a literal Adam and Eve?
- mental capability of making moral judgments?
- being a homo sapiens?
- something else?

How do the various denominations deal with infants or severely retarded people? That might give some clues.
 
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