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Epistemic Virtues: Is it better to know, or to seek to know?

zippy2006

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Sorry, I hadn't read that post. Thanks for pointing it out to me.

Here's what I wrote:

That's interesting: Robinson's epistemic virtues as correctives which are specifically appropriate to the human condition. I think that's a great way to defend the epistemic virtues. It also helps get at a way to defend them as ends in themselves. It also makes sense according to the idea of virtue as a perfection or excellence of character which then allows one to act well (that is, focusing more on the character traits than the individual acts, which is similar to Robinson's focus on "seeking" over "knowing").

I focused on merit because of the sheer space he devoted to that idea. It was hard for me to overlook. Normative virtue ethics is certainly one way to safeguard merit. I think the Aristotelian angle shows promise. I will look forward to your reply.


 
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public hermit

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I agree with you that the author's conception of knowledge as memorized facts (e.g. S heard a fact on a documentary) is separable from the epistemic virtues he espouses. Again, I think he plays fast and loose with "knowledge." But, isn't that part of his point? Does one really know if what they know is a fact they heard, but did not acquire in an appropriate way, e.g. deliberate investigation or proper verification? Isn't it simply a matter of luck (assuming the fact is true)?

This gets to your point about merit. Modern discussions in virtue epistemology have, in part, been aimed at differentiating between knowledge that is "lucky" and knowledge that is acquired by virtue of one's abilities (i.e. whether one "merits" the knowledge). This is partly a reaction to Gettier problems. Take Robinson's example. S comes across a fact about climate change by watching a documentary. Assuming the fact is true, then if S knows that fact it's only because of luck. That is, S's didn't "earn" the fact. So, strictly speaking we can't say that S knows, only that S has a true belief that S luckily acquired. How does this tie into the epistemic virtues? I'm not sure, but that won't stop me from trying, haha.

Assuming S inhabits the four virtues, the appropriate way for S to act while having drinks with the friend without the fact is to exhibit intellectual humility and say, "I heard this supposed fact, I don't know if it's true." I think the point of the scenario is to draw out the point that S's "knowledge" is not knowledge.


The article is confusing in that it seems to mix epistemic virtue and moral virtue. The epistemic virtues he mentions are virtues in relation to the truth. But, I think he is also trying to point out that life situations affect what we come to know (sitting at home with plenty of money to leisurely watch documentaries, or working two jobs and unable to afford the leisure to accidentally learn facts). I'm not sure what he is trying to do there except encourage humility for those who have the leisure, time, etc.? Certainly, anyone, regardless of their situation could inhabit the epistemic virtues. So, although, they may not have the opportunity to acquire the knowledge accessible to others, they could still have intellectual humility, intellectual courage, openness, and curiosity.


This goes back to my comments above that the epistemic virtues are virtues in the classical sense of "excellences" or "ways of acting (thinking) appropriately." First, I'll say you are correct, the epistemic virtues are not pursued for their own sake, in that their end is knowledge or truth. The computer doesn't need epistemic virtues because computers do the exact function they are programmed to do (presumably). Humans need the epistemic virtues because of limits and fallibility that is inherent with human knowing. The epistemic virtues, rightly inhabited, help one have the appropriate attitude towards what one knows, or doesn't know.

So, on the one hand, I agree with the idea that epistemic virtue is related to merit or credit. That is what differentiates true knowledge from lucky knowledge. But, another value of the epistemic virtues is in nurturing a certain attitude towards knowledge acquisition, which is what I think Robinson was trying to get at when he talks about a "healthy" relationship to truth acquisition.
 
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GrowingSmaller

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Ok I get the point now, and in some contexts I'd agree. They're the virtues to hold to.

But, for example humility as a virtue. I instantly imagine experimental improvised dance. Now, ones "aesthetic knowledge" and "sense of what to do next" are part of the mindset which allows one to take instantaneous, and sometimes bold, expressive and confident, even over the top decisions. Ta da!

Not only did I get the girl, but I also won a prize.

Another example might be an action painter like Jackson Pollock. He might know what to do with the paint, but in such creativity of creativity he may acually sometimes insist on virtues quite the opposite to humility.

Here's what I have in mind, you may want to look from 8.00mins in:



Its easy, I imagine, to take science as a paradigm. Especially when atheists are debating with religious people....?
 
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public hermit

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These are interesting examples. What "intellectual" virtues allow for creative works? Spontaneity? Intuition? I think there is a reason that, for the life of me, I can't enjoy poetry. Maybe there is some "epistemic virtue" I lack, because for sure I can't understand it, any of it, haha.

Its easy, I imagine, to take science as a paradigm. Especially when atheists are debating with religious people....?

I can see why that might be. I have been thinking a lot about epistemic basing relations and evidentialism. For those who think of themselves as evidentialists, I think it would be fairly easy to show, via the concept of basing relations, that much of what they believe is not based on evidence, but testimony. Evidentialism as a personal theory of knowledge is simply untenable. If CF ever opens up the Philosophy Forum I may create a post along those lines.
 
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GrowingSmaller

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I like to think that we can be rationally attracted to Being, sometimes closer, and sometimes in flight from it. So, the truth of being is graspable as a logical idea, but also aesthetically and existentially.

Intellection, and intellectual virtues are monopolised as a category by dry logicians and abstractionists who talk about the truth and falsehood of a statement as if it wee the only form of truth..

But as Heidegger pointed out, there is the truth of Being (aletheia, or unconcealment, was his preferred term, which ontological domain may well be prior to truth)...

The unconcealed, open domain - a little like a forest clearing - in which we live and exist.
 
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zippy2006

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I think luck is definitely at play in the article, but the merit theme goes further. To quote:

At the opposite end of the scale, some are effectively handed the truth about some matter as if it were a mint on their pillow, pleasantly materialising and not a big deal. Pride in this mere knowledge of the truth ignores the way in which some people come to possess it without any care or effort, and...
Some receive "mere knowledge of the truth" without doing any work, without meriting the possession of that knowledge in any way. Part of it may be luck, but I think he is more concerned with the effort discrepancy than the luck discrepancy.


He actually gives the purpose of his example, "This example is designed to show that knowledge of the truth might very well have nothing to do with our own efforts or character." We may simply differ, but he seems consistent in affirming that the climate change fact constitutes "knowledge of the truth," or later, "mere knowledge of the truth."

(I am not opposed to deviating from the article. Many of our posts have focused on interpretation.)


Yes, I think so.


Right, and I think that is also in line with the article. Like the documentary-watcher, computers accumulate information but they do not merit, exert effort, or exude character. Thus there is no possibility of praise, and this is true in part because they cannot participate in the epistemic virtues.


Sure, and presumably that healthy relationship benefits the individual's methodology as well as the quality of the knowledge obtained?
 
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Noxot

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What you do with what you have is important. Your intentions will be important. What matters most is the depths of our spirit because that is who we really are even though right now we exist with accidental qualities. When we inherit our Celestial body we will only keep what we freely became. so it is foolish to take pride just because you have an IQ of 145 and can remember most things that you learn. inner humility is always going to be important for Spiritual Development because it is our spiritual ears. A thirst for goodness and Truth is a Divine quality. Knowledge without virtue is like truth without goodness. It is spiritual winter.
 
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Noxot

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Since all knowledge in heaven is free the priority for Immortal beings is their heart. Knowledge as an end can be a mere fleshly pragmatism that is concerned with survival and lower things that do not matter compared to the quality of the Soul.

Knowledge of God is rooted in love because one could be said to know God more, even if they're ignorant, if they act according to the image of God that they can potentially be. So divine truth is the outward appearance of love. God as wisdom/truth and love/goodness cannot really be separated because God is one.

But what is strange to me is how one can have a knowledge of the truth and yet not have love. I suspect that they will find out that whatever they thought they had shall be taken away from them.

Lesser knowledge is unworthy to pursue if cut off from love. Higher knowledge is the knowledge of love. Lesser knowledge is a tool and a toy. Lesser knowledge should never be an end in itself. sharing the joy and having Joy of lesser knowledge is already a quality of the Kingdom of Heaven because God Wills that we have joy. We are not soulless robots and so we should not act like it. Sometimes logic can be very dehumanizing.

So all worthy knowledge will always be connected to virtue.
 
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GrowingSmaller

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I've reached a conclusion that there are different ontological domains. Like the kinaesthetic, the eurythmic, good taste of food, the bad taste of food, physical science, social science, religion, etc.


Its possible each one has a specific and proper set of epistemic virtues. So there is possibly epistemological pluralism, many ways off knowing. Physical science is not necessarily the paradigm for the chef, nor the dancer.

Epistemological pluralism - Wikipedia

Each context and ontological domain having a proper set of epistemological virtues.

A good psychologicist will need different mental skills to a good mathematician.

A mystic may seem like a philosophical deviant to the scientist, and the scientist a totalitarian to the mystic. East is East and West is West.



Wittgenstein said philosophy problems can arise when "language goes on holiday". Maybe, to some degree, when epistemology goes on holiday too? i.e. when the virtues of the empirical sciences are imported into religious discussions. When at times they're unnecessary baggage?

A fair analogy could be Logical Positivism. Ultra empiricist, it classed religion as nonsense, or akin to poetry at best. Take again the example as truth as "corresponsence between statement and fact" - that's ok when its a matter of fact (i.e. empirical appearance) one is relating to.

But one can relate to unseen things like God. Maybe religion has a different form(s) of epistemology. If a scientist were to use it, he would be mocked, but that's no reason to insult the faithful. They're not equivalent domains.

Rerouting the discussion to a definition of knowledge as something like "true, justified belief" will likely just take us back to empiricism and correspondence. And a scientific angle. As Balthasar would note, "kneeling science" is impossible, but "sitting science" - i.e. the academic - is possible if not necessary. Whereas Balthasar described himself as a a kneeling theologian. One engaged in contemplative prayer. Hans Urs von Balthasar - Wikipedia

Maybe, for religion we could reroute from "correspondence models of truth" and have something like "warranted assertibility" as a model for epistemology? I'm thinking one can assert a with warrant different from direct factual evidence and what can be derived deductively from it...

Could a religious epistemology be brave enough to even "forget about the facts, for a while"? (Is that a suicidal tendency? its interesting to look at suicide statistics. Religion and Suicide: Religious Affiliation, Atheism, Suicide )

Forget facts? Scientific minds may laugh, but that laughter is just down to a breach of taboo?
 
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public hermit

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I agree that there are different ways of knowing commensurate with the domain in reference. In my twenties I was a telephone lineman. Aerial telephone line construction is a specialized activity with specialized tools and it requires specific abilities. In some ways, it is not wholly unlike stretching barbed-wire fencing, but only in a general sense. An observer, with enough time could grasp the general understanding of how it is done. But, simple observation is not going to give them the "know-how" knowledge that usually only comes with practice. So, along with epistemological pluralism, I would also point out there is a distinction between "know-that" and "know-how." You can learn all kinds of things about a religion, i.e. "know-that," but you won't have "know-how" until you begin to immerse yourself in the practices and live according to the precepts, etc.


Agreed.


Again, I agree. We must have went to different schools together. Somewhat related to Wittgenstein's "language games," one of the recent discussions in epistemology is "epistemic contextualism." Roughly, the idea is that "knows p" means different things in different contexts. If I walk up to a person on the street and ask them, "Do you know if you have hands?" they will probably look at me like I'm crazy because in that context there is no reason for them to doubt that they do. However, if they are sitting in an epistemology class discussing whether our not we are "brains in vats" then the context allows for the appropriate skepticism and therefore the question makes sense.

Epistemic Contextualism (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

Maybe something similar is happening in some religious discussions. From a Muslim/Jewish/Christian perspective, questions such as "Do you have evidence for God" don't even make sense given that from these perspectives "God" is a limiting concept, i.e. God is the creator of the observable world and not an object within the world that can be observed or evidenced. From those perspectives, such questions make about as much sense as asking me to observe my eye with my own, unaided, eyeball. It simply can't be done.


Imagine a scientist asked me what it would take for her to come to faith and I responded, "Okay, come by tomorrow and bring your microscope, test tubes, and all the other apparatus that you use because that is what we also use to come to faith. See you tomorrow." That would make about as much sense as if I asked a scientist, "How do I do science?" And they responded, "Okay, first you must spend time in prayer, then study the scriptures. Also, take up some spiritual practices like fasting (because that helps prayer) and contemplation, silence, simplicity. If you do these things with faith, then you will be doing science. In fact that is exactly how we developed the vaccine for Coronavirus!"

Rerouting the discussion to a definition of knowledge as something like "true, justified belief" will likely just take us back to empiricism and correspondence.

Technically, JTB shouldn't necessarily take us back to empiricism and correspondence. But, depending on who you're talking to, it too often does.


Love this. I'm a huge Balthasar fan.


I can go along with this. Maybe, warranted assertability coupled with coherence as a model for religious epistemology. Most people's hang-up with coherence theories is that they aren't necessarily grounded in observables and publicly verifiables, like a correspondence theory presumably could be (actually, correspondence has it's own epistemic demon to deal with in the noumena/phenomenon distinction). But, going back to the idea that God is a limiting concept, I don't know that a religious epistemology can avoid this. In other words, there's just no way to avoid faith.
 
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