'epiousion' :the Lord's prayer. (help needed)

[mannysee]

Hello,

Could someone please help me understand what point the author of the following text extract is trying to say. I am a bit lost as to what he means by the text i highlighted in bold.....

"When I talked to him about the Lord's Prayer, I asked what he made of its famous crux- the meaning of epiousion. He bluffed, turning on a tape in his mind, going through his spiel on the Lord's Prayer, touching on every phrase except the one I had brought up-this from a man whose brief biography on the back of his books stresses how many years he studied Greek and Hebrew. I cannot judge his (or anybody's) Hebrew; but if it is no better than his Greek, it is a sham."

What is this "famous crux"; the meaning of epiousion. Why does the author call this, a famous crux?

Thanks.

 

[CCWoody]

Don't know if I can help, but I'm off to check my Greek NT to see if there is an obvious answer....

Ok, I'm back. Nope, don't know what this "famous crux" is that he sees in the passage. It might be more helpful if we knew what he thinks this "famous crux" is and then try and figure out why he sees it in the passage.

 

[mlqurgw]

You may want to ask a Catholic. It seems to me that I remember something along this line being taught by them as the meaning of the word being necessary bread and relating to the Mass.

 

[mannysee]

mlqurgw,

Yes, i didn't think i would need to mention it in my original question, but the author of the text is a man by the name of Gary Wills. He is a Catholic who has written some US political/religion books. Of course he approaches the subject from a Catholic viewpoint.
You may be on the right track here.
Maybe I need a Catholic priest to look at the question?

thanks

 

[CCWoody]

OK, as I was looking at this word and its possible origin, it is possible that the adjective epiousios (I may go back to pasting pictures of the correct word if I can't figure out how to make it work right in CF) comes from the word epiousa, which suggests "to come upon." So, it may be that he is of the opinion that the necessary bread, our daily bread, must come upon us. Perhaps this is how he is looking at this.

 

[mannysee]

woody,

what do you mean by 'come upon us'?
daily bread coming upon us?

Does Catholic theology identify this phrase as supporting some doctrinal point? perhaps, something similar to the wafer/bread being transformed into Christ's body?
or some other kind of mumbo jumbo?

Edited.... also, i just thought, why would the 'protestant' pastor be bluffing in regards to this question being put to him, if he did not hold a Catholic viewpoint of the discussion?

(I am stumped!)

 

[mlqurgw]

Actually Thayer goes into it quite extensively in his Lexicon. You may want to check it out. It is Strongs #1967

 

[CCWoody]

Actually Thayer goes into it quite extensively in his Lexicon. You may want to check it out. It is Strongs #1967

Right. It was suggested in my source reference that the root of 1967 might be 1966. Is there an online reference for Thayer that I can view.

 

[arunma]

I read the original Greek of the Lord's prayer. Is there some famous controversy in St. Matthew 6:11 that I don't know about? Allusions were made to Catholic doctrine, but I've never heard of this controversy before.

 

[mlqurgw]

Right. It was suggested in my source reference that the root of 1967 might be 1966. Is there an online reference for Thayer that I can view.

I tried to find one but I didn't have the time to do a very extensive search. You maybe able to find it. I have the hardback version so I just looked in it. Sorry.

 

[mlqurgw]

I read the original Greek of the Lord's prayer. Is there some famous controversy in St. Matthew 6:11 that I don't know about? Allusions were made to Catholic doctrine, but I've never heard of this controversy before.

I havn't had time to really look into it but I gather that the Catholics use the word as a proof of transubstantiation. Of course I could be wrong. But that has never happened before. Yeah right!

 

[mlqurgw]

mlqurgw,

Yes, i didn't think i would need to mention it in my original question, but the author of the text is a man by the name of Gary Wills. He is a Catholic who has written some US political/religion books. Of course he approaches the subject from a Catholic viewpoint.
You may be on the right track here.
Maybe I need a Catholic priest to look at the question?

thanks

Please let us know what you find out.