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So, then you are like all other non-RCs in that you do exercise personal discernment/interpretation in determining what you believe? Cool.I don't know any of this, it's what I believe by faith.
But, we won't be judged as one-body in Christ-as a church--we will be judged as individuals. So, personal discernment and interpretation are important factors.Certainly the HS leads individuals as well, but the real concern here is leadership of the church as the one body of Christ.
The relevance is when someone attempts to discredit a quote from a source and insists that context is essential--that person should at least know the "context" of the assertion he is making.I have not read all of Augustine's works. The few that I have read entirely, I found to be very orthodox. I don't really see the relevance in this line of questions.
Well, we're told repeatedly we can't trust our own personal discernment/interpretation when it comes to Scripture. Then we are accused of not being able to discern what "fallible" church fathers taught. It gets old.Infallible interpreter? What does that have to do with what I said?
Unless, of course, it happens to be an ECF like Augustine, who the EOC apprently contradicts on some teachings.
So, how does the EOC determine what parts of "what it received" to accept?
Originally Posted by Standing Up
There was another Tradition that went through Christ the apostles to bishops like Polycarp, Melito, Polycrates who believed Christ was on the cross until sunset just as OT scripture says. Then they wrote the NT exactly the same.
As foreshadowed by Moses, Christ was on the cross until evening/sunset/going in of the sun.
But, Justin adds to scripture, saying "almost until evening/sunset". Almost, like 3pm maybe, His hands came down. You know that Tradition.
Okay. Thanks.
I think this goes back to something mentioned earlier about doctrine and whether it was once delivered or developed. RCC and EO believe it developed, although seeds were supposedly there in scripture or early tradition.
I suppose SS believe it was once delivered and didn't develop like Papal Supremacy.
The question of iconography is Incarnational.
The tomb was near Golgatha as recorded by scripture. Three hours is not unlikely. One must then decide between agreeing with the Gospel accounts (three of the four are clear), or finding an agreement with the OT.
Scripture: Moses' hands were up "until evening/sunset"
Justin's Tradition: Moses' hands were up "almost until evening/sunset".
Just look at it like Scripture says, not like Justin's Tradition. God authored the OT and NT; there's not going to be a contradiction between the shadow and reality.
The Gospel says evening had come, which starts Passover (slay the lamb at sunset). Christ partakes, then is arrested, tried, and crucified.
Now, Scripture foreshadowed that He remained there until sunset. And that is what it says. Therefore, the Gospel says evening had come, which starts the first day feast of unleavened bread a high sabbath, Joseph requests the body and buries it.
If you go by Justin's Tradition, you read scripture, evening had come, they eat the Passover, Jesus is arrested, tried, and crucified. And now Tradition, He is taken down and buried before the next evening had come. (We talked about this before; this is why the NIV says that that second "evening had come"-past tense translates it "evening will come"-future tense.). Scripture is plain. Evening had come-death. Hands up until sunset. Evening had come-burial.
"For it was not without design that the prophet Moses, when Hur and Aaron upheld his hands, remained in this form until evening. For indeed the Lord remained upon the tree almost until evening, and they buried Him at eventide; then on the third day He rose again."
ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus | Christian Classics Ethereal Library (chapter XCVII, (97), Dialogue with Trypho)
Now I don't know what you mean
Here's the Justin quote again:
It reads to me that Moses's hands were up until evening,
Lord on tree til almost evening.
In the LXX, Exodus reads: "... until the descent of the sun."
Masoretic: " ... until sunset."
So I'm not sure what you mean about Justin re: Moses (in bold, above).
I do remember discussing this before, but again I cited John who states that Jesus was entombed on "paraskeui" after 3pm and the sabbath was close. Again, if you are arguing a Thursday crucifixion, the timing takes the entombment beyond the 24 hour limit for Jewish burial.
Yepperz. It is indeed interesting as it what his bro Peter wrote hereAnyone else find it significant that 2 Thes 2:15 says
So, then brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.Amazing he said "by us....our spoken word....or by our letter", now let me ask you, can their spoken word and their letter be contradicting? I say it shouldn't be...so if I chooses to follow the bible using sola scripture, how exactly will that be wrong? They are the letters that they wrote, through the Holy Spirit of course!!!
OK...am I the only one that found that remotely interesting?...yeah...yep...okay.
Scripture: until evening or sunset or descent of the sun. They are the same.
Justin's Tradtiion: almost until evening or almost until sunset or almost until the descent of the sun.
If Justin had wanted us to understand the phrase as scripture says, he would not have added the word "almost". So, even if scripture says that evening meant 3pm, Justin is saying 2pm. If scripture says 6pm, Justin means 5pm.
Died about 3pm Thurs. Hands up to sunset. 6pm sunset (thurs end/fri begins). Burial at latest 9pm on Fri/prep day. 6 elapsed hours. (Keep in mind that the day changes at sunset/evening/6pm. So 9pm Fri is only 3hours into the new day that began at sunset/6pm.)
Anyone else find it significant that 2 Thes 2:15 says
So, then brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.Amazing he said "by us....our spoken word....or by our letter", now let me ask you, can their spoken word and their letter be contradicting? I say it shouldn't be...so if I chooses to follow the bible using sola scripture, how exactly will that be wrong? They are the letters that they wrote, through the Holy Spirit of course!!!
OK...am I the only one that found that remotely interesting?...yeah...yep...okay.
No contradictions.
He is saying 2 things. One he's pointing backward to a completed doctrine to which they should hold tight that was delivered. He's not saying you got some cool new revelation. Two his 'spoken word' is simply his explanation of OT application as it pointed to Christ. For example, Moses hands up foreshadowed Christ's crucifixion.
Yepperz. It is indeed interesting as it what his bro Peter wrote here
2 Peter 3:16 As also in all the letters speaking in them about these-things in which is difficult-to-understand who-any which the un-learned and un-steadfast are wresting/twisting as also the rests of Writings toward the own of them destruction/apwleian <684>.
Remeber though, some of the accounts say opsios - a time that ranges from three until sunset (after that the time is in "watches"). So toward sunset/almost sunset/opsios are synonomous.
The question is what is Justin's term in the original language ? What is the usage in his region/profession ? Is he writing as a trained writer (rhetoric/philosophy) or in a more vernacular or relaxed style ? To whom is his piece addressed - does his language deliberately reflect their usage or those from whom he learned the faith ? This is why I asked if the original language was available. These are the sorts of questions that cannot be answered with a quotation from the piece he wrote.
I'm not sure how sunset Thursday until 9pm preparation is 6 hours ?
I didn't say they was a contradiction, I mean that their spoken words and their written words should not be a contradiction.
So if someone chooses to go sola scripture, then technically they could live their lives as according to what is called in scripture.
2,000 years of Tradition is tough. So, I'll be blunt. None of what you ask matters. Justin clearly added the word that is translated "almost". If it didn't matter, he wouldn't have said it. But he did in order to adhere to his Tradition. If he adhered to the Tradition from Christ to the apostles to the bishops in Asia Minor Polycarp, Melito, and Polycrates, he would not have had to add to Scripture.
Evening/opsios is from 3 pm til sunset. Here again I am confused; I quoted the verses (including John, apparently from whom Polycarp got his information) - they all say finished at 3 (9th hour). The 9th hour is the beginning of the time period opsios. I then referenced passages in the Gospel where (in a single event account) opsios is used for the full range of time (3 pm - sunset). After sunset is niktos and the time is recorded in "watches" (1st, 2cnd, 3rd, and 4th watch) - as in the Gospel account referenced.If scripture says Jesus died at 3pm, Justin says almost 3pm. If scripture says on the cross until sunset, Justin says almost until sunset.
Yup, as I said the particular portion of opsios/opsias (as in the scriptures I referenced) is given a further description where a particular portion of opsios is meant.Here's NT:
Mk. 1:32 And at even, when the sun did set, they brought unto him all that were diseased, and them that were possessed with devils.
Take a look at John 6:16-17, opsios is used in both verses and covers a span of time. The second mention, later on chronologically, opsios is described as now dark.That was Mark agreeing with the OT definition of evening.
So which part of the opsias (aprox. 6 hours) is meant here ?Mk. 14:17 And in the evening he cometh with the twelve. (to eat Passover. arrested at midnight. tried in the morning. crucified and dies at 3pm).
But again, the "hours" refer to the daytime, the "watches" to the nightime.Hands up until sunset, so a new day has begun from Thurs Passover to Friday preparation/high sabbath.
This is opsios again; a six hour span which is not further narrowed to which part of opsios. (See Matthean pasages and those form John, above, for the narrowing applied to the span called opsios.)Mk. 15:42 And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath, (Joseph requests body, Pilate has to make sure He is dead, grants body, Joseph and Nicodemus prepare it, and bury it.)
I'm sorry, I don't understand how you derive this. I hope the above will help to explain at least why I don't understand what you mean.Christ died on the cross at 3pm Thursday. His hands were up until sunset at 6pm. That is three hours. Thursday ends now and Friday begins (a Jewish day changes at sunset). Joseph requests body. 1st watch is 3 hours later. Total is maximum 6 hours from death to burial.
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