• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

EO Arguments Against Sola Scriptura

CaliforniaJosiah

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Aug 6, 2005
17,496
1,568
✟229,195.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Republican
I challenged you to do the same for the NT canon of scripture.

You already agreed that Jesus used Scripture canonically (the Rule of Scripture). It is not necessary to have Jesus quote every single word of every book from Genesis - Revelation to establish that Jesus used Scripture canonically. However, it the EO argues that all the following are ALSO canonical, if you continue to argue that Jesus used all of the following canonically: The Divine Liturgy of the EO , The Holy Services of the EO, The Holy Mysteries of the EO , The Byzantine Chant of the EO, The Temple Architecture of the EO, then don't you need at least some examples of that? I would not ask you to note that He referenced EVERY church building of the EO canonically, or every single word of the Byzantine Chant - enough so that it is CLEARLY the Byzantine Chant that is being used canonically establsihes it. In order for a policeman to use the Rule of Law, must he quote to you EVERY law of every locale where law exists? Or is it enough to referance the law particular to this situation?


.
 
Upvote 0
T

Thekla

Guest

I asked for the scripture which has Christ speaking what the canon of scripture is ...
 
Upvote 0

CaliforniaJosiah

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Aug 6, 2005
17,496
1,568
✟229,195.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Republican
Jesus said "I say unto you..", "I give you a new commandment...", etc. His authority was Himself.

If you are God, your words can be canoncial, too. I suppose.

But if you are not God, why are your words equal with His? Why are your views the rule for divine truth and not His words? Why the rule of "my views" rather than "His words?"

And if all 2.2 billion do as you desire (or all 50,000 denominations do as you suggest) - each looking at the mirror for confirmation of self, then all we have is confirmation that self looks/sounds/believes like self, it has nothing to do with truth or error.



.



.
 
Upvote 0

CaliforniaJosiah

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Aug 6, 2005
17,496
1,568
✟229,195.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Republican
I asked for the scripture which has Christ speaking what the canon of scripture is ...

The Scriptures Jesus quoted, some 70 of them, are used canonically.

Now, where does He canoncially use the EO' canon/rule/norma normans including: The Divine Liturgy of the EO , the Holy Services of the EO, The Holy Mysteries of the EO, The Byzantine Chant of the EO , The Temple Architecture of the EO?

You agreed He used Scripture canonically, normatively. That's obvious. You just seem to be questioning the "solo" part, insisting that He used OTHER THINGS as His canon - but you've failed to give any examples, and what I asked for is where he used what the EO uses, including The Divine Liturgy of the EO , the Holy Services of the EO, The Holy Mysteries of the EO, The Byzantine Chant of the EO , The Temple Architecture of the EO? Now, I did NOT require that you show that He used EVERY SINGLE ASPECT OF EVERY SINGLE EO CHURCH BUILDING as normative - a few examples of such shows the canonical nature of such. You said you had them; in fact you said you listed them. I missed it and asked you for the post number. I'm hoping you'll get to that.



.
 
Upvote 0
T

Thekla

Guest
Now, as I said previously, the scriptural references would take hours to compile and post; unless you want to step in as mom for 5, thtas beyond my time allotment.

Worship: Byzantine worship is the 'descendant' of the worship that Christ participated in during His time on earth. There are books available on this topic if you are truly interested.

Liturgy: leitourgos is the term used in the NT. Our Liturgy includes scripture, psalms and spiritual odes and hymns (the odes we use do adhere to the actual ode-form), as well as the Eucharist. (*whoops, sorry; the psalms, odes, hymns, and leitourgos, can be found in the epistles of Paul.)

Sacraments/Mysteries: in the EO these are not said to have a number, but the chief ones (Eucharist, Baptism, Chrismation/Annointing, Ordination/laying on of hands, Marriage) should be readily remembered by anyone familiar with NT scripture.

Chant: to this you may reference musicologists. Suffice to say that musically, our chant is certainly much closer to present Jewish chant than western music. (A man I spoke with stated he liked attending the EO on occasion; though no longer a practicing Jew, our worship - including chant - nostalgically linked him to the Synagogue worship of his youth). As to scripture, there is no denial that chant to the Lord is scriptural.

Architecture: again, based on the pattern in the OT (Holy of Holies, Altar, outer portions, etc). The Altar specifically contains relics ( a 'showing forth' of the teaching in Revelations). (* most of the references occur in the OT)


Finally, we do use incense -- as in the Malachi verse I cited before.

SO: in the NT Christ attends Jewish worship, which is the pattern for Byzantine worship. Its what Christ DID. We even chant in a similar fashion. Those elements which are not precisely Jewish were of course "updated" as fitting for Christianity.

Christ worshiped with incense. Do you ?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
T

Thekla

Guest

Thus, when we iterate what books are in the NT, we are attempting to usurp the place of God (Who mentioned no such list).
 
Upvote 0

buzuxi02

Veteran
May 14, 2006
8,608
2,514
New York
✟219,964.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single

By your above standard then , you must reject the NT. Christ did not use it since it was not yet written. Not sure why temple architecture is listed in the above. But the NT falls under the same realm as the the other "rules" you have listed above. The Divine Liturgy, holy services, chanting; singing hymns. listening to the NT are all parts of orthodox worship, there not seperate entitites. And yes the worship services of the Church are all divinely inspired and part of the Holy Tradition. The Divine Liturgy is precisely one of the holy services of the church and in that service hymns are chanted (in byzantine style in the greek churches), and many of those hymns are the psalms. Obviously the NT is read also as are other parts of the OT in these services. And of course Jesus did attend synagogue and temple worship.

Again i think were off on a tangent here. The thread is in regards to sola scripture. Within protestantism there are tens of thousands of denominations. The point is when one researches to see why this is. It comes down to the protestant dogma of sola scripture. Most of these protestant sects are offshoots of other protestant sects. The origin of schism tends to be over theological differences which arise over the interpretation of scripture and how the church i to be structured based on the NT. Because within the dogma of sola scripture, naturally the protestant must ask himself "am i in the NT church"? And the NT church for many sola scripturalists is the one that most closely resembles what is revealed in the NT about it.
Now you have given the lutheran definition of sola scripture unfortunately itss only valid for your denomination, because other protestants interpret it differently. And in reality what your belief of what sola scripture ought to be is not what takes place in reality. Just ask the sola scripturalist scholar N.T. Wright who doesnt have the same belief as you, but in many ways are closer to Orthodoxy:
How Can The Bible Be Authoritative? by N.T. Wright
 
Upvote 0
T

Thekla

Guest

Here is a partial list (which includes elements, etc. with ref.)

Our LIfe In Christ - Orthodox Christian MInistry

For the rest, I will rely on your knowledge as mentioned in my previous post, unless I bump into something else. Ah -- some of the architectural elements (Holy of Holies, etc.) are mentioned in Hebrews.
 
Upvote 0

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
Site Supporter
May 19, 2015
125,550
28,531
74
GOD's country of Texas
Visit site
✟1,237,300.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
Excellent Thekla!!!

Hebrew 9:3 After yet the second veil, a booth/skhnh <4633>, the one being said holy of holies.

Revelation 21:3 and I hear a Voice, great, out of the heaven, saying "Behold! the booth/skhnh <4633> of the God with the men and He shall be boothing/skhnwsei <4637> (5692) with them and they, peoples of Him shall be, and He, the God is with them

http://www.christianforums.com/t6728727/
The word "booth" in NT/NC
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Upvote 0

Standing Up

On and on
Sep 3, 2008
25,360
2,757
Around about
✟73,735.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
To try to provide scriptural background for a few comments along the way.


-snip-
Before the NT (which began some 10 years after Easter and was completed within 70 years), -snip-

.

The reason you may say NT was written circa 45-95 was because Jesus told us it would be when He identified the sons of Thunder--the first and last apostles to die. These were the eyewitnesses who could write authoritatively (Lk 1 and Jn 20:30-31 pick up this point as well).



As well, Rev. 2:2 and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

This was written c95. How could they have been tried? What was the plumbline? I say, you say, but what does God say?

-snip-

In fact, He corrects misinterpreted scripture by referencing scripture ...

Good point. Satan quoted scripture and Christ quoted it back. Or He quotes Himself--you have heard it said, but I say ...


I cannot add to scripture as I am not qualified, not being an eyewitness. But neither is anyone else, regardless of their so-called apostolic lineage. In fact, those so-called lineages amongst the different denominations (RCC, EO, P) have led to the current mess.

As to scripture itself (NT and OT), some (and I would agree) have found it foreshadowed in the menorah and its parts, referencing thy Word is a lamp (psalm 119:105). The 7 branches with their almonds, bulbs, flowers to make up 66 parts, which are the 39 OT and 27 NT books as one.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Standing Up

On and on
Sep 3, 2008
25,360
2,757
Around about
✟73,735.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
I asked for the scripture which has Christ speaking what the canon of scripture is ...

I'd again point out Jesus did this when He referenced the blood of Abel to Zecharia (OT) and when He named the sons of Thunder (NT).

As well when He referenced the Law, Prophets, Psalms for the OT.

His followers picked up on what was wrote:

Jn. 1:45 Philip found Nathanael and said to him, "We have found Him of whom Moses in the Law and {also} the Prophets wrote--Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph."

In turn, as you read, they wrote. Lk tells us the same thing. John tells us This is the disciple who is testifying to these things and wrote these things, and we know that his testimony is true.
 
Upvote 0

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
Site Supporter
May 19, 2015
125,550
28,531
74
GOD's country of Texas
Visit site
✟1,237,300.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
*snip*
I'd again point out Jesus did this when He referenced the blood of Abel to Zecharia (OT) and when He named the sons of Thunder (NT).
.


Matt 23:5 so that may be coming on ye all blood Righteous being out-poured upon the land, from the blood of Abel the righteous until the blood of Zachariah, son of Barachiah, whom ye murder between the Sanctuary and the altar".

Reve 18:24 And in Her blood of Prophets and of Saints was found and of all of the ones having been slain/slaughtered/esfagmenwn <4969> (5772) upon the land. [Reve 6:9/17:6]
 
Upvote 0
T

Thekla

Guest

Personally, I have no problem with the canon

(I also use both the LXX and Masoretic for the OT).

The issue revolved around how the "rule" itself is decided -- especially for the NT. If the matter is required to be explicit instruction, the Bible as a whole shrinks a good deal.
 
Upvote 0

racer

Contributor
Aug 5, 2003
7,885
364
60
Oklahoma
✟32,229.00
Faith
Pentecostal
I continue to be reminded why certainpeople choose to belong to a particular church and adhere to its teachings and claims to be infallible and in possession of the fullness of Truth.

I just find it sad that they doubt their ability to trust their own understanding of what God revealed to us through Scripture, yet for some reason have no trouble believing what their Church reveals to them.

Once again--we will be judged as INDIVIDUALS!!! not as a groupl that has been obedient to a man-made and man lead institution. Sadest part is these people do not appear to even be aware of the fact they do this. In fact, they create some very circular and convoluted explanations to justify what and why they believe as they do.
 
Reactions: sunlover1
Upvote 0

Standing Up

On and on
Sep 3, 2008
25,360
2,757
Around about
✟73,735.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private

Well, NT eyewitness was one rule, which was an OT rule.

Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;

For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

(Christ) And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are witnesses of these things.

To what point? To proclaim Christ, but as they would die, they HAD to write it down that WE who were not witnesses would know with certainty, believing that we might have life in Him (Lk, Jn, Peter, Paul, etc).

Is. 30:8 Now go, write it on a tablet before them And inscribe it on a scroll, That it may serve in the time to come As a witness forever.

The rule is "thus it is written" for the OT and the NT.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
T

Thekla

Guest

Again, I do not disagree with you. But the question revolved around the failure of consistency in the sola scriptura view; that is, all must be assessed by an outside 'objective' source, but the source used for assessment cannot be conclusively assessed (for authenticity or veracity) by any outside source.

The witnesses you mention, for example, belonged to a group that had no objective outside measure; all the witnesses belonged to the group. Thus, the group 'authenticated itself'. This is exactly CJosiah's criticism of the RC, LDS, etc.

The critique is selectively applied; the standard (sola scriptura) relies on a rule which is self-referentially accepted without any stated measure or rule. And the praxis of sola scriptura is not scripturally evidenced as being the sole "rule".
 
Upvote 0
T

Thekla

Guest


This critique is equally applied, it seems to me, to the embrace of the sola scriptura practice; sola scriptura (as evidenced by scripture) is a man-made method.
 
Upvote 0

seashale76

Unapologetic Iconodule
Dec 29, 2004
14,046
4,452
✟206,426.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Melkite Catholic
Marital Status
Married

Do you rely on your own interpretations and dare to say it is from the Holy Spirit? I've seen people wallow on the floor and tell other people what they think God told them in a moment of fleeting ecstasy. I've seen these 'words of the Lord' contradict each other. Then, it all depends on who can convince everyone else that they're more spiritual, eh? Passing off doctrines of men as a moving of the spirit- is detestable. Mass confusion, and God isn't the author of it.
 
Upvote 0

buzuxi02

Veteran
May 14, 2006
8,608
2,514
New York
✟219,964.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single

What you write here has merit. The proof that Jesus of Nazareth was the messiah had to be demonstrated to fellow jews by searching the scriptures to see if Jesus fullfilled those prophecies. Christ also fulllfilled spoken prophecies not clearly found in the OT. The NT tells us he fulfilled what was spoken by the prophets when he resided in Nazareth and not in Bethlehem. Because of an oral tradition that the messiah would be called a nazarene (matt 2.23). Some attempt to connect this with judges 13.5 but in reality it is not found in the old testament.

Your post does not defend sola scripture but Apostolic Tradition. Your post is an apologetic AGAINST sola scripture, but you havent realized it.
You open your post by describing what tradition is: 'Even as they delivered unto us, which were from the beginning eyewitnesses.'

Correct, this is the definition of tradition, " receiving and delivering" down thru generations. The origin of these traditions are from eyewitnesses (the apostles) not books nor thru individuals who believe the Holy Spirit has lead them exclusively generations after the events.

Paul said, "Now I praise you brethren that you remember me in all things and keep the traditions, as I DELIVERED them to you." 1COR11.2

Again you point out how Christ commanded preaching to all nations and the need for witnesses. This is apostolic tradition. Here you have revealed the origins of apostolic succession. If the apostles were meant to be scribes then eyewitnesses would not be needed.

Paul says, "For i delivered unto you first of all that which i recieved how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures."(1cor15.3).
Once again the terminology which defines tradition, to recieve something from a previous generation and safeguarded so one can delivered it to the next generation.
In this case it is the interpretation of OT passages concerning the passion of Christ.

In Pauls epistle to Timothy he further lays down the groundwork for apostolic succession:
"And the things which you heard from me among many witnesses the same commit to faithful men who shall be able to teach others also."(2tim2.2.) Paul further clarifies this point when he says "all scripture is given thru inspiration of God. It is not sola scripture he speaks of as is evidenced from 2 verses earlier but proper understanding of them, "But continue in the things which thou has learned and have been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them".2Tim3.14

Scripture speaks of baptism, yet the 'bible only crowd' cannot agree on whether to baptize in the name of each person of the trinity or in the name of Jesus. They cannot agree on whether baptism is a one time ritual or be repeated numerous times. They cannot agree on whether baptism is a vehicle for grace or just a legalistic act. They cant agree on whether it is neccesary or optional. Heck they have yet to figure out whether it should be done in triple immersion or in single immersion! (that one should be able to be figured out by reading the original koine). Within sola scripture all these points can be valid because theres no requirement for antiquity or universality or consent to establish a reliable precedent.

This goes for the rest of the sacraments, including social issues where the new crop of liberal sola scripturalists see the bible sanctioning same sex marriages.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0