Enough! (We Don't Need Handguns - When God Is for Us, Who Could Be Against Us)

dpartlow · May 17, 2007

To KarrieTex - Agree with you on hunting - no problem with that - but who hunts with a handgun? As for the issue about wars in the old testament - God either did the fighting (Jericho, Red Sea, Sennacherib, Gideon), or he gave an explicit command through the office of the prophet to fight. Because of David's warring nature (which was in cases not explicity authorized by God) he was prohibited from building the Temple. God essentially says that his frequent warring is a stain on the nature of an otherwise (mostly) Godly man.

dpartlow · May 17, 2007

To wildthing and izdari (and others with similar comments). I absolutely agree that we should apprehend assailants and protect potential victims. But there are other (less deadly) ways of doing this.

To everyone who disagrees with this position - I am considering your arguments and appreciate your input.
But I'm not yet convinced. And I truly believe this is a constructive conversation/thread.

dpartlow · May 17, 2007

Also, while Jesus seems to permit the bearring of a weapon (although 2 swords for 12 disciples is not exactly a ringing endorsement) - He prohibits them from using them.

wildthing · May 17, 2007

dpartlow said:
To KarrieTex - Agree with you on hunting - no problem with that - but who hunts with a handgun? As for the issue about wars in the old testament - God either did the fighting (Jericho, Red Sea, Sennacherib, Gideon), or he gave an explicit command through the office of the prophet to fight. Because of David's warring nature (which was in cases not explicity authorized by God) he was prohibited from building the Temple. God essentially says that his frequent warring is a stain on the nature of an otherwise (mostly) Godly man.

I do!!!! I used a .357 to hunt hogs when I was in Texas. I also use it for target shooting too.

No he was prohibited from building the temple because of his affair with Bathsheba and the murder of her husband, not because he went to war with the Philitines.

wildthing · May 17, 2007

dpartlow said:
To wildthing and izdari (and others with similar comments). I absolutely agree that we should apprehend assailants and protect potential victims. But there are other (less deadly) ways of doing this.

To everyone who disagrees with this position - I am considering your arguments and appreciate your input.
But I'm not yet convinced. And I truly believe this is a constructive conversation/thread.

Disagree You have no idea on what it is to have a person who killed before facing you with a pitch fork. You have no idea what it is to be 17 year old kid having someone whose intent is do do great bodly harm to you with pitchfork. The .45 is the correct answer. Sorry in some case when the assilent is in your home the only way is to shoot to kill. I have been advised by the local police to do that very thing if it every happens again.

Yes ther are other ways to take control of the problem. I only suggest shooting when it is in self defense or in defense of your family. You certianly donot want to injury others by your use of a fire arm. But in most cases you do need to use some physical force. A kick in the butt, throwing a hardbal, use of a crowbar (used that with a trucker once who side swiped my SUV and was going to leave the scene of an accident)

Yes I did aprehend another person once when I caught him in my car I slamed his head against the b pillar of the car and knock out a few of his teeth.

wildthing · May 17, 2007

dpartlow said:
Also, while Jesus seems to permit the bearring of a weapon (although 2 swords for 12 disciples is not exactly a ringing endorsement) - He prohibits them from using them.

On the contrary if He was so against arms would he not also be against converts who were in the military. There is no command given to give up this occupation. In fact both Him and Paul spoke highly of the military. Actually he only said it once to Peter to put away his sword. It was customary for people in that time to have such weapons when they traveled so there is a chance the others already had such weapons. So really that is not a ringing endorsement not to use them if nesscary.

dpartlow · May 17, 2007

God is the cop. Not you or me. Christ says - "you can have no power over me unless it was given to you by my Father." Good things happen for a reason, and bad things happen for a reason - I may not understand it - but God does - and He punishes us from time to time - "If you refuse to be chastised I will smite you 7 times harder than before". But He also defends us when we have faith that He will.

wildthing · May 17, 2007

sorry I have a tendency to be just a little aggresive at times.

NHB_MMA · May 17, 2007

dpartlow said:
To KarrieTex - Agree with you on hunting - no problem with that - but who hunts with a handgun?

My buddy took two deer with a handgun last year.

As for the issue about wars in the old testament - God either did the fighting (Jericho, Red Sea, Sennacherib, Gideon), or he gave an explicit command through the office of the prophet to fight.

God really doesn't communicate with us anymore in that manner, now that His Word is complete. We don't have the same "prophets" that were around in OT times. Again, it just seems to boil down to expecting a divine intervention rather than acting on the common sense God gave us.

wildthing · May 18, 2007

dpartlow said:
"If you refuse to be chastised I will smite you 7 times harder than before". But He also defends us when we have faith that He will.

Please check your definition of chastised. The root of this word means to sexual pure. Also i believe this was found in the old testament is reguards to Isreal not obeying God.

True I'm not a cop. But we are called to be people of action. Look at the parable of the good Samertian and the Pharisee.

dpartlow · May 18, 2007

Wild thing - chastised litterally means 'whipped'. Figuratively it means rebuked and also that through rebuke we may be made pure.

As for the comments about commands to soldiers - People then as well as now were forced into this profession - however there is a very clear command to harm no one both by John the Baptist (explicitly to soldiers) and by Christ (to everyone). When Peter uses the sword against the minions of CaiaphasChrist scolds him for doing so. One of the most amazing things that sets Christianity appart from ALL other religions is it's commandment to Love your Enemy and Turn the Other Cheek.

wildthing · May 18, 2007

You are correct it does. But I very much doubt that God will chastis me for loving my neighbor by protecting them or by protecting myself and my love ones...God never intended us to be the doormat of the world that is why instinctively we fight back...

My brothers and myself were not force into military we went because of the training that it offered. Perhaps people are forced into it but I was not. I do miss it...

Christ only said to turn the other cheek. The language of that time was very idomatic, fact is the languages of middle east still are. The fact is that Christ was meaning that we are to take verbal abuse, abuse that really does not harm us. If we were to look at the mean of that we would see that in order to let someone slap you they would use the back of their right hand in order to slap your right cheek. You could use your left but that has the same meaning as back of your hand. is back hand comments or left handed remark... So you are free to defend yourself, your love ones and your neighbors...

Love your enemies true until it becomes clear that they are out to exterminate you and then you have the moral obligation to protect yourself and your love ones.

wildthing · May 19, 2007

dpartlow said:
As for the comments about commands to soldiers - People then as well as now were forced into this profession - however there is a very clear command to harm no one both by John the Baptist (explicitly to soldiers).

Not quite! Luke 3:14 states "Then the soldiers asked him,'And what should we do?' He (John the Baptist) replied,"Dont extort money and don't accuse people falsely-be content with your pay" (NIV) There is no command not to take action when called to. There is no command to leave the military service or not to do what you are ordered to do.

dpartlow · May 19, 2007

I realize NIV omits the words 'do violence' so I will study the translation a bit more - but in KJV John clearly says to the soldiers "Do violence to no one".

JC1983 · May 19, 2007

Having anything more than a pistol is overly-paranoid. Learn Martial Arts if you're so scared about getting into trouble.

wildthing · May 20, 2007

dpartlow said:
I realize NIV omits the words 'do violence' so I will study the translation a bit more - but in KJV John clearly says to the soldiers "Do violence to no one".

Luke 3:14 "And when soldiers asked him 'What shall we do?' he told them'Do not extort money by intimidating or informing, but be content with your pay" (MLV)

Luke 3:14 "Soldiers also asked him, 'And we, what shall we do? and he said to them 'Rob no one by violence or by false accusation, and be content with your wages" (RSV)

Luke 3:14 "Soldiers also asked him What about us? What are we to do? He said to them Don't take money from anyone by force or accuse anyone falsely. Be content with your pay" (GNV)

Luke 3:14 "Some soldiers also asked him And what of us To them he said, No bullying; no blackmail; make do with your pay" (REV)

According to the "New Testment Wycliffe Bible Commentary"

Verse 14 means this "And soldiers Likwise". Soldiers, were often brutal to civilians, and practiced extortion upon them. do violence to no man. The Greek word for violence (diaseisete) means "to shake down" an ancient counterpart of modern slang.

Rick Otto · May 20, 2007

I read one by a guy in South Africa, who was in church when three or four moslems marched in with AK 47s. If he hadn't had a revolver with him, everybody in there woudlve been massacred, but one skinny white guy with a pistol was enough to send those over-armed cowards packin'.

Defence is a prime provision;
1Ti 5:8 - But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

ArmyMatt · May 24, 2007

I think the thing to keep in mind here, is that we live in a fallen world. While it's true that God is Lord over all, we still have to live in a corrupt universe ever since we fell. He can protect us from anything, but I'd be willing to bet that no one here would swan dive off the Sears Tower and expect God to save him. As my priest says, "God don't fix stupid."

It's not the handgun itself that we should be praying about, but the sin in in the heart of the person that will use it to hurt people. You can hurt someone with all kinds of common things like knives, rope, pillows, your bare hands, fire, baseball bats, etc. And it sucks that we have to live in a world that is fallen, but we do.

So all we can do is pray, wait for the Day when this world fades, and play by the rules that exist now where murderers and rapists exist.

ArmyMatt · May 24, 2007

I think I gotta clarify some things. By my last post I am in no way condoning death or hurting anyone for any reason. I am simply saying that we live in a fallen world, as much as it sucks.

I will give an example. If most people saw a rapist attacking a woman, they are going to get him off of her, even if it means beating they guy until is knocked out. Now, the guy beating the rapist is not a "good" thing because we are called to see Christ in everyone (including rapists), but it was necessary to get him to stop.

Enough! (We Don't Need Handguns - When God Is for Us, Who Could Be Against Us)

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