Enough Reason to Leave?

MechPebbles · May 11, 2015

How does one know when to leave a church? Take this for an example.

(This is a Southern Baptist-like church.) In January of this year, the senior pastor left because of sexual infidelity. The church, even though it has other pastors, goes into a crisis. This is probably because of the much-discussed personality cult as most people in the church adored him (the guy was a really good preacher and had some charisma).

The church leaders - not the remaining pastors, who I think are doctrinally sound, but the lay elders and deacons - interpreted this as trouble brought on by God because the church had grown "proud and arrogant". So to remedy this, they called on the church, for the first time in its history, to observe Lent. Not only was everyone to fast and pray but those who were too old to fast were asked to abstain from meat. During the weekly senior citizen meetings, where the folks bring in home-cooked food, they were told that there must be no meat in any of the recipes.

In March, the elders set up a Pastoral Restoration Committee to get the departed pastor to return.

Would you leave such a church?

stenerson · May 11, 2015

Yes I would leave that church.

GQ Chris · May 11, 2015

Yes. And not regret it for one second.

Calvinist Dark Lord · May 11, 2015

MechPebbles said:
How does one know when to leave a church? Take this for an example.

(This is a Southern Baptist-like church.) In January of this year, the senior pastor left because of sexual infidelity. The church, even though it has other pastors, goes into a crisis. This is probably because of the much-discussed personality cult as most people in the church adored him (the guy was a really good preacher and had some charisma).

The church leaders - not the remaining pastors, who I think are doctrinally sound, but the lay elders and deacons - interpreted this as trouble brought on by God because the church had grown "proud and arrogant". So to remedy this, they called on the church, for the first time in its history, to observe Lent. Not only was everyone to fast and pray but those who were too old to fast were asked to abstain from meat. During the weekly senior citizen meetings, where the folks bring in home-cooked food, they were told that there must be no meat in any of the recipes.

In March, the elders set up a Pastoral Restoration Committee to get the departed pastor to return.

Would you leave such a church?

If you can not tolerate the decision to return the errant pastor to the pulpit, and could not continue to serve under his leadership, it is best to leave the church and seek another one where you can serve.

i realise that you speak of a Baptist Church and i am speaking from a Presbyterian perspective, but it is true in both cases that God is also Lord of the Conscience. As stated in the Westminster Confession of Faith:

God alone is Lord of the conscience, and hath left it free from the doctrines and commandments of men which are in any thing contrary to his Word, or beside it in matters of faith on worship. So that to believe such doctrines, or to obey such commandments out of conscience, is ts betray true liberty of conscience; and the requiring an implicit faith, and an absolute and blind obedience, is to destroy liberty of conscience, and reason also.(Chapter 20 Paragraph II)

If you can not in good conscience be there under the circumstances you've stated, then by all means leave and God Bless You.

BryanW92 · May 11, 2015

I would leave.

pdudgeon · May 11, 2015

sounds much like the tail is wagging the dog.
where are the three remaining ministers in all this? didn't they have any input in the matter, or has the leadership of the church shifted to the laity now?

if that is the case, then leave.

abacabb3 · May 11, 2015

Well, observing lent is not heresy. Lutherans observe lent. However, if they can't get over this fallen church leader, then yes I would leave.

St. Helens · May 12, 2015

I would bail in a heartbeat.

MechPebbles · May 14, 2015

Thank you very much for the responses. One of the things that really bothered me was how no one else seemed bothered at all. It made me feel like I was being petty over minor matters. Your responses are very encouraging. Thanks again.

MechPebbles · May 18, 2015

Dear pdudgeon, I have noticed from the two congregational Baptist churches I have attended that - except when there is a pastor who has a strong, commanding, charismatic personality, in which case most everyone falls in line - the elders take over the leadership of the church and the pastors are treated as paid employees. After all, the elders conduct the pastors' job interviews and decide to employ or reject them and their contract renewal is by membership vote. In another Baptist church, most of the sermons are preached by lay preachers and the senior pastor just does the initial welcome, the corporate prayer and the final benediction.

How does congregational church polity resolve this problem? After all, not all pastors are the aggressive type.

twin1954 · May 18, 2015

MechPebbles said:
Dear pdudgeon, I have noticed from the two congregational Baptist churches I have attended that - except when there is a pastor who has a strong, commanding, charismatic personality, in which case most everyone falls in line - the elders take over the leadership of the church and the pastors are treated as paid employees. After all, the elders conduct the pastors' job interviews and decide to employ or reject them and their contract renewal is by membership vote. In another Baptist church, most of the sermons are preached by lay preachers and the senior pastor just does the initial welcome, the corporate prayer and the final benediction.

How does congregational church polity resolve this problem? After all, not all pastors are the aggressive type.

I know that you didn't ask me but I will answer if you don't mind. You state one of the reasons I do not believe the Bible teaches congregational polity. It teaches pastoral authority under the headship of Christ. When pastors are hired or fired by a congregational vote, or by elders, he is under the authority of the congregation or elders instead of under Christ. Therefore his preaching and teaching are geared toward keeping his job. If he wants to keep his job he must act, say and preach as they expect him to instead of what the Word of God says.

Being a pastor is not a vocation a man aspires to as a job but a calling from the Lord in which He puts you. Christ calls His men and prepares and gifts them for His church. They are a gift from Christ to His church and are under no one but Him. Read Eph. 4:8-13 leaving out the parenthetical statement, which is legitimate to do.

When a church is ruled by the congregation the tares have as much say as the sheep. They usually have the louder voice and carry the vote.

BTW, I would leave the church as well. A man who disqualifies himself from the ministry of the Gospel may be forgiven for his fall but he can never be a shepherd to the sheep again. Pastors are sinners themselves just like the rest of us and fail as often as we do but a fall that disqualifies you for the ministry cannot be overlooked. It can be forgiven but it cannot be treated as though it never happened.

JM · May 18, 2015

Thanks twin for posting. I've defended congregational polity in the past but always with a sense of unease.

stenerson · May 18, 2015

twin1954 said:
You state one of the reasons I do not believe the Bible teaches congregational polity. It teaches pastoral authority under the headship of Christ. When pastors are hired or fired by a congregational vote, or by elders, he is under the authority of the congregation or elders instead of under Christ..

What's the alternative? I mean so far as the hiring or firing of Pastors is concerned. I agree it shouldn't be up to a congregational vote. But shouldn't elders be there as a check and balance should Pastors go astray, heretical or apostate?
By the way I think that reformed baptists got it right concerning plurality of elders, and that pastor, elder are interchangeable terms.

twin1954 · May 18, 2015

Any man who will not listen to and take the council of those who are elders is a fool. Prov. 12:15 But we are to follow those who are called and gifted of God as they follow Christ. 1Cor. 11:1

JM · May 19, 2015

The Presbyterian form of government is looking pretty good…

stenerson · May 19, 2015

JM said:
The Presbyterian form of government is looking pretty good…

Vestiges of Popery.

JM · May 19, 2015

stenerson said:
Vestiges of Popery.

lol I like that. Is that a Pink quote?

stenerson · May 19, 2015

JM said:
lol I like that. Is that a Pink quote?

I don't recall him saying it, but I might of heard something similar somewhere, at some time.

Calvinist Dark Lord · May 19, 2015

JM said:
The Presbyterian form of government is looking pretty good…

Plurality of Elders is not unique to Presbyterian Polity. However, as far as i be aware, the following IS unique to Presbyterian Polity: Ministers or Teaching Elders are not members of the congregation they are called to minister at. They do not belong to the congregation, they belong to the Presbytery who places the call into their hands or removes them from a call.

Our Polity was designed to protect individual congregations from abusive ministers, and ministers from abusive congregations.

There are some minor exceptions to this. The first that comes to mind is the new Evangelical Reformed Presbyterian Church, which is, i believe, an offspring of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church. However, even in that particular case, i believe that the safeguards mentioned above are still in place.

twin1954 · May 19, 2015

stenerson said:
What's the alternative? I mean so far as the hiring or firing of Pastors is concerned. I agree it shouldn't be up to a congregational vote. But shouldn't elders be there as a check and balance should Pastors go astray, heretical or apostate?
By the way I think that reformed baptists got it right concerning plurality of elders, and that pastor, elder are interchangeable terms.

The New Testament does teach a plurality of elders. But often the congregation isn't large enough to need more than one, which is the pastor. The pastor is called to be an under-shepherd under Christ and is as the head for lack of a better way to illustrate his position. Anything with more than one head is a monster.

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