Enoch and Elijah

[FaithT]

Ok, it’s my understanding that Catholicism teaches that heaven is not a physical place in space so I’ve asked this before, either here or on another forum, but where are Enoch and Elijah if heaven isn’t a physical place? They aren’t among the planets. They aren’t floating around in outer space, yet they were taken to heaven and were not glorified. I just don’t get it. Anyone?

 

[Maori Aussie]

Ok, it’s my understanding that Catholicism teaches that heaven is not a physical place in space so I’ve asked this before, either here or on another forum, but where are Enoch and Elijah if heaven isn’t a physical place? They aren’t among the planets. They aren’t floating around in outer space, yet they were taken to heaven and were not glorified. I just don’t get it. Anyone?

Science is slowly coming to the realisation that the universe has more than four dimensions.

 

[FaithT]

Science is slowly coming to the realisation that the universe has more than four dimensions.

And…..? What happens when technology improves to the point where these dimensions are visible?

 

[Maori Aussie]

And…..? What happens when technology improves to the point where these dimensions are visible?

God knows.

 

[FaithT]

God knows.

Then what was your point about more than four dimensions?

 

[FaithT]

Anyone else care to chime in? Michie? I read a lot on Catholic Answers and it still doesnt click with me. I mean I realize it’s a mystery but what are some possibilities acceptable to the Church?

 

[Bob Crowley]

Way back when I was a new Christian and running around getting a bit of spiritual counselling, one pastor said to me that "there's a very strange psychic world out there".

I've often stated that the night my father died he turned up in the room. His opening words were either "I've come..." or "I've been sent ..." to apologise to you for the way I've treated you. I can't remember which but it was one of those two.

But I still remember the look of surprise on his face when he first appeared near the door of the room. He didn't know where I lived and I didn't want him to know as I coudn't stand him. And yet I think he'd no sooner been told to apologise than he found himself in my bedroom immediately.

He also drifted a bit from side to side as we talked. I wondered why he didn't stay put. Years later I started thinking about this, and I realised that we're moving around the Milky Way at about 140 miles per second (about 220 kms per second or about 800,000 kms per hour). We're kept in place by gravity, but he was pure spirit and gravity wouldn't apply. Something was keeping him there, and at 800,000 kms per hour it wasn't very concerned about a couple of feet of sideways drift.

I also had 3 "double whammies" starting at Christmas 1983 and I suppose the last one was mid 1984 or thereabouts - let's say six months. Each time they happened it was like a breath going through me in waves from head to foot, very strong, and each time it was used to highlight what someone else was saying - a Bible study leader the first time, and my local pastor the second and third times. It hasn't happened since.

Let's assume it was 6 months from first to last - in that time I'd have moved 3.5 billion kilometers through space. Whoever caused the "double whammies" knew exactly how to find me, how to precisely highlight the three phrases (referring to King David, St Paul and CS Lewis respectively) on three occasions without anybody else knowing about it, while I moved at 800,000 kms per hour being just one of about 5 billion people alive at that time.

God permeates this universe and the non-material world as well, and He knows precisely where we are, what we're doing, what we're saying, and what we're thinking. He forgets none of it - He puts AI in the shade.

Having said that I also believe there is some sort of "spiritual environment" in which the principlaities and powers operate but I have no idea what it is. For a start the spiritual beings could probably be best described as "pure intelligence", but at the same time they can have appearances - Moses and Elijah must have been recognisable as "men" to Peter, James and John at the Transfiguration. The creatures crying "Holy, holy" by John in Revelation were described as having " ... six wings and ... covered with eyes all around, even under its wings. Day and night they never stop saying: “’Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty,’ who was, and is, and is to come.”

When my father appeared the night he died most of the time he was looking at something over and behind me with a look of awe, punctuated by periods of trying to hide his face behind his hands. I surmise at those times he could see aspects of his own life which weren't very nice.

But at the end he gave this blood curdling scream and disappeared into eternity. It was obvious he could see something coming for him and it terrified him. I was unable to see either the judgement seat (which I think was above and behind me) or the creatures that caused him so much terror at the end. Whatever they were he could see them.

I also noted though that whatever was coming for was coming from my left - definitely my left. If I was facing the same way as the judgement seat behind me then I suppose in anthropromorphic terms he was one of the "goats" - ".. they will go to my left."

Bear in mind that in 1979 when he died the populiation was about 4.36 billion. Today with close to double the population about 107 people die every minute, so the figure back then was probably about 50 per minute.

Let's suppose the judgement and our conversation exchange took about 5 minutes in our time. That means 250 people would have faced the same judgement seat in that same time, but to them it would have seemed to involve only them.

Every single one of them would have gone to the "left" or, more happily, to the "right". But what does "right" and "left" mean in that context?

I'm thrust back to the pastor's comment that "there's a very strange psychic world out there" and yet I still believe there is some sort of "environment" in heaven, and hell, and purgatory. After all Scripture tells us that there was "war in heaven", but it would have been an intense intellectual war - they don't have tanks, aricraft, sniper rifles or any other implements. But somehow brute force was applied and the devil and his minions were cast out of heaven.

So there's some sort of environment and what we might call "Space", but don't ask me to describe it as I haven't got a clue what it's like.

 

[Bob Crowley]

Some saints have had visions of heaven (and hell and purgatory). St. John Bosco's particular vision seemed to include what we would understand to be "places" - broad imposing avenues, grand gardens, music most sweet and so on.

These Saints Had Visions of Heaven and Hell and Revealed What They Saw

During their lifetimes, some saints were given a peek into the happiness of heaven and the horrors of hell.

www.ncregister.com

St. John Bosco on Heaven

St. John Bosco, known as Don Bosco, wrote of his vision of heaven on Dec. 6, 1876. He said that “all was blue as the calmest sea, though what I saw was not water …”

He described “broad imposing avenues divided the plain into grand gardens of indescribable beauty.” He heard “music most sweet — so delightful and enchanting a melody that” he “could never adequately describe. … One could tell from the expressions of those happy faces that the singers not only took the deepest pleasure in singing but also received vast joy in listening to the others … and this was their song: Salvation, honor and glory to Almighty God and Father … the Creator who was, who is and who will come to judge the living and the dead forever and ever.”

But we could not pin the location down in our sense. Google maps wouldn't be much help.

Enoch and Elijah are up there somewhere, and that's about all we can say about them.

While I'm at it, some saints had a vision of purgatory which some Christians don't believe exists. It exists all right. And its "up there" as well. As to where hell is that's another story, but in all cases - heaven, hell and purgatory, they're more states of being than places. Even on earth, if we have the good fortune to spend a day at a beautiful beach, do we really care "where it is" or the "state of being" we are in, one of pure enjoyment?

St. Catherine of Genoa's vision of Purgatory

After having received a vision of purgatory, St. Catherine of Genoa could not say enough about the happiness which is to be found there. Of course, the Saint did not mince words about the pain souls experience as well. In her treatise on purgatory, she wrote, “I believe no happiness can be found...

www.catholicnewsagency.com

As St. Catherine says, “The souls who are in Purgatory cannot, as I understand, choose but be there, and this is by God's ordinance who therein has done justly.” In fact, the soul sees this purification as an act of God’s burning charity and would rather suffer this a thousand times rather than go straight to heaven. Again, she says, “Never can the souls say these pains are pains, so contented are they with God's ordaining with which, in pure charity, their will is united.”

Upon death, the soul sees itself as it really is and it sees it in contrast to what it was created to be. And it is the latter, that is, what the soul was created to be, which St. Catherine of Genoa refers to this as the “beatific instinct.” This beatific instinct is the capacity or desire each person was created with to love God; and with each person this beatific instinct varies. For instance, even if I were to be perfect in what God created me to be, my beatific instinct or capacity to love God would never equal that of the Blessed Virgin’s. As stars in the night sky have a different capacity to shine, souls are created with a different capacity to love God in heaven. In any case, the soul in purgatory sees – as if in an instant – his sins and how far away he had fallen from what he was created to be.

 

[Michie]

*Permission to post in full*

Question:​

Recently, in our parish Bible study class, the leader stated that heaven is not a place but is in our minds, and he quoted sections 2794–2796 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church as a source for this opinion. I am deeply troubled by this concept. If heaven is not a place, then why did Jesus ascend into heaven as he left his apostles? Why would he say that he was going to prepare a "place" for them, if one did not exist? Why does the Catechism say heaven is "a way of being?" I have not been back to Bible class since this bomb was dropped on me.

Answer:​

Your distress shows the difficulty of expressing transcendent concepts in mere words. The truth is, we don’t know exactly what heaven is like—even if we did, we could not reduce it to language, which is a human device incapable of containing God.

Your group leader’s statement that heaven is “in our minds” is misleading, however. Heaven is within us, in the sense that each Christian is a temple of the indwelling Trinity. But it is no more accurate to say that heaven is only within us than it is to say that, by virtue of our receiving the sacraments, Jesus exists only within us. God and heaven live within us—but they also have an objective life beyond us as well.

God, in a sense, is heaven. In 1 Maccabees 3:18, for example, the author uses “Heaven” as a name for God (to avoid using the name it was forbidden to pronounce). Heaven exists wherever God is. Jesus said, “The kingdom of heaven is at hand” (Mt 4:17), meaning that, since God took on flesh, heaven itself is here, among us. After death, our experience of heaven will be to enter fully into the intimate love of the Holy Trinity, to our everlasting and perfect joy. To the extent that we participate in that love while on earth, we begin to share the joy of heaven now. Catherine of Siena said, “All the way to heaven is heaven.”

You are right that the Bible refers to “heavenly places.” We must keep in mind that time and space are finite concepts; God is not bound by them, nor could God live in one physical place, as we think of it, because the physical universe is his creation and cannot contain him. Heaven is a place, but not a particular space.

We must understand the symbolic language of the Bible and the saints as an attempt to communicate the ineffable. We do not understand literally terms such as seeing God “face to face.” We rejoice in their meaning: that we will be with God, intimate with him, unhindered by our mortal limitations.

As the Catechism says (section 1024), “This perfect life with the Most Holy Trinity—this communion of life and love with the Trinity, with the Virgin Mary, the angels and all the blessed—is called ‘heaven.’ Heaven is the ultimate end and fulfillment of the deepest human longings, the state of supreme, definitive happiness.”

We leave up to God “where” and “how” he fulfills his promise.

---

For more on what the Catholic Church teaches about heaven, see our encyclopedia entry and our article “What is Heaven?“

Is Heaven a Place or Only a State of Mind?

What is heaven? Where is it? Is heaven a physical place, or just a state of mind? Click here to see the Catholic Church's understanding of heaven.

www.catholic.com

 

[Michie]

Where is heaven? - Arlington Catholic Herald

We all want to go to heaven and see Jesus, but I would like to have some idea of where it is. Can you help me?

www.catholicherald.com

Is heaven a physical or spiritual place?

Explore whether heaven is a physical or spiritual place by delving into Scriptures and theological insights to understand God's promises about the afterlife.

biblechat.ai

What is Heaven?

Then Cardinal Ratzinger, in his book, Eschatology: Death and Eternal Life, published in 1988, warns against depicting heaven as an extension of this life pretti...

www.catholic.com

What Is Heaven Really Like?

The idea that we will spend eternity as disembodied ghosts is one of the most widespread myths about the afterlife. Our ultimate destiny is to be the embodied spirits that God always intended us to be.

www.catholic.com

 

[RileyG]

Ok, it’s my understanding that Catholicism teaches that heaven is not a physical place in space so I’ve asked this before, either here or on another forum, but where are Enoch and Elijah if heaven isn’t a physical place? They aren’t among the planets. They aren’t floating around in outer space, yet they were taken to heaven and were not glorified. I just don’t get it. Anyone?

Known but to God. One day we shall understand.

 

[FaithT]

Where is heaven? - Arlington Catholic Herald

We all want to go to heaven and see Jesus, but I would like to have some idea of where it is. Can you help me?

www.catholicherald.com

Is heaven a physical or spiritual place?

Explore whether heaven is a physical or spiritual place by delving into Scriptures and theological insights to understand God's promises about the afterlife.

biblechat.ai

What is Heaven?

Then Cardinal Ratzinger, in his book, Eschatology: Death and Eternal Life, published in 1988, warns against depicting heaven as an extension of this life pretti...

www.catholic.com

What Is Heaven Really Like?

The idea that we will spend eternity as disembodied ghosts is one of the most widespread myths about the afterlife. Our ultimate destiny is to be the embodied spirits that God always intended us to be.

www.catholic.com

I guess what I’m asking is this: I could understand how Jesus and Mary are in heaven because they’re glorified but what I don’t get is how Enoch and Elijah could be there since they’re glorified but weren’t glorified. Where are THEY?

 

[Michie]

God can make allowances.

This might be helpful.

Yes, Enoch and Elijah Went to Heaven | Catholic Answers

If Heaven was not opened until the time of Christ, what about Enoch and Elijah, who seem to have been assumed into heaven prior to that? Click here.

www.catholic.com

Was Elijah assumed into heaven before Mary? | Catholic Answers

Was the prohpet Elijah assumed into heaven before the Blessed Virgin Mary? What does the Catholic Church teach about the assumption of Mary? Click here.

www.catholic.com

First of all, Jesus didn’t take every soul who ever lived into heaven, only those who had died in God’s friendship, in the state of grace. Secondly, while it’s true that the Old Testament indicates that Enoch as well as Elijah were taken into heaven prior to the atonement and the harrowing of hell, it was still through the merits of Christ’s future passion and death that they were able to go there. Just as the Blessed Virgin was preserved from all stain of sin by the merits of Christ’s future passion applied to her at the time of her conception, in the same way God could bring Enoch and Elijah into heaven by the same future merits of Christ.

How could Enoch have been taken up into heaven before Jesus freed the souls in limbo?

First of all, Jesus didn’t take every soul who ever lived into heaven, only those who had died in God’s friendship, in the state of grace. Secondly, while it’s...

www.catholic.com

 

[FaithT]

God can make allowances.

This might be helpful.

Yes, Enoch and Elijah Went to Heaven | Catholic Answers

If Heaven was not opened until the time of Christ, what about Enoch and Elijah, who seem to have been assumed into heaven prior to that? Click here.

www.catholic.com

Was Elijah assumed into heaven before Mary? | Catholic Answers

Was the prohpet Elijah assumed into heaven before the Blessed Virgin Mary? What does the Catholic Church teach about the assumption of Mary? Click here.

www.catholic.com

First of all, Jesus didn’t take every soul who ever lived into heaven, only those who had died in God’s friendship, in the state of grace. Secondly, while it’s true that the Old Testament indicates that Enoch as well as Elijah were taken into heaven prior to the atonement and the harrowing of hell, it was still through the merits of Christ’s future passion and death that they were able to go there. Just as the Blessed Virgin was preserved from all stain of sin by the merits of Christ’s future passion applied to her at the time of her conception, in the same way God could bring Enoch and Elijah into heaven by the same future merits of Christ.

How could Enoch have been taken up into heaven before Jesus freed the souls in limbo?

First of all, Jesus didn’t take every soul who ever lived into heaven, only those who had died in God’s friendship, in the state of grace. Secondly, while it’s...

www.catholic.com

It doesn’t say how they could breathe or survive there, though without being glorified. im understanding or misunderstanding that Enoch and Elijah were human and non glorified like us, when they were taken up, so I don’t get how they could be in heaven or even outer space. I don’t think I’m explaining this well.

 

[Michie]

It doesn’t say how they could breathe or survive there, though without being glorified. im understanding or misunderstanding that Enoch and Elijah were human and non glorified like us, when they were taken up, so I don’t get how they could be in heaven or even outer space. I don’t think I’m explaining this well.

The point is that God can do anything He desires. He does not have to operate under the same circumstances we do. They call it Faith for a reason. We simply are not meant to know everything here. We see through a mirror darkly.

 

[FaithT]

The point is that God can do anything He desires. He does not have to operate under the same circumstances we do. They call it Faith for a reason. We simply are not meant to know everything here. We see through a mirror darkly.

Ok. So God doesn’t do things we do, his rules are different than ours and we’ll understand at the end of time?

 

[Michie]

Sorry!

 

[FaithT]

Sorry!

Sorry for what?

 

[Michie]

Sorry for what?

For the non satisfying answer.

 

[FaithT]

For the non satisfying answer.

Your answer was ok…..but the way I said it is what you meant, right?