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Yeah, very cool.Thank you for that excellent information! I preordered it from Amazon.com. I didn't know there would be an ESV with the Apocrypha!
I'm still looking forward to the release of the ESV with Apocrypha. However, I want to take back my slam at Crossways. Since I wrote that, I've acquired their new ESV Study Bible, and there's nothing wrong with the physical quality. Crossways seems to be learning to do it right, and I'm glad.Excellent news! So it will be by Oxford (IMO a much better publisher in terms of physical quality than Crossways) and it will be a real ESV translation. I look forward to owning one.
I'm still looking forward to the release of the ESV with Apocrypha. However, I want to take back my slam at Crossways. Since I wrote that, I've acquired their new ESV Study Bible, and there's nothing wrong with the physical quality. Crossways seems to be learning to do it right, and I'm glad.
I'm not sure about the I Tim 3:15 issue, I'll have to look into it. But this much I know for sure: there is no such thing as a flawless translation. If you insist on having one, good luck!OK.
I think there might be a flaw in the text of the ESV translation.
1 Timothy 3:15 uses "a" instead of "the".
All other major english translations KJV, NIV, RSV, NASB, NAB, NRSV, Douay Rheims all use "the" THe ESV is the only one to use "a". This changes the entire meaning of the verse.
Do you think this is actually what the original manuscripts say and the the translators of the ESV are the first to figure it out after all this time, or do you think the translators of the ESV used "a" because they didn't like the verse being used as a position against sola scriptura? Thus, undermining scripture and twisting the words to mean what they wish it meant?
I like the ESV. Their translation of 1 Tim 3:15 undermines it's authority for me. Now, I will always have to check it for accuracy against the time tested versions because I have lost a degree of faith in it. I doubt it will be the great ecumenical Bible we were hoping for.
Back to the drawing board......
I'm not sure about the I Tim 3:15 issue, I'll have to look into it. But this much I know for sure: there is no such thing as a flawless translation. If you insist on having one, good luck!
This one? --
1 Timothy 3:15 (English Standard Version)
15if I delay, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, a pillar and buttress of the truth.
Compare with --
1 Timothy 3:15 (Young's Literal Translation)
15and if I delay, that thou mayest know how it behoveth [thee] to conduct thyself in the house of God, which is an assembly of the living God -- a pillar and foundation of the truth,
And with --
1 Timothy 3:15 (Wycliffe New Testament)
15 but if I tarry, that thou knowest, how it behooveth thee to live in the house of God, that is the church of living God, a pillar and firmness of truth.
That's two early translations that render it the same way as the ESV does. I think we'd better look at the original Greek... but I'm not equipped to do that right now.
Is it scant because there is not an alternative pillar and foundation of truth?Hmmm...innerestin'.
I looked at the Greek for this verse. There is no definite article "the." The absence of a definite article means one of two things.
1. Since Greek has no indefinite article ("a") it may be that the indefinite article should be supplied ala ESV, Young's and Wycliffe.
2. Or, it may mean that the definite article ("the") should be assumed. This is the case when there is something unique about the anarthous noun (i.e. the noun without the article). For example, in Greek, Jesus is often called "Son of God" without the article, but it is translated "the Son of God" since this is uniquely his status.
In the case of "pillar and buttress" whether to assume the definite article, or to supply the indefinite article is a matter of exegesis. Either way, the effect on the meaning of the verse is scant.
Is it scant because there is not an alternative pillar and foundation of truth?
In Psalm 19, there are two who testify to the truth about God. The one is the word of God, which at the time was borne witness to by the testimony of the nation of Israel. The other is the creation of God; Saint Paul later expounding that what can be known about God is plain to people, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made.I agree. Is it The Pillar or A Pillar? The meaning is totally different. If it is the that means the Church is the Pillar and butress that upholds the truth of the Gospel. If it is a then what are the other pillars and butresses that uphold the truth?<snip>
Is it scant because there is not an alternative pillar and foundation of truth?
We'd better throw out the whole scant Bible, then.It is scant because it is an analogy, and no analogy should be pressed too far.
Agreed, pressing the analogy too far. Paul's point may be that, in this case, there is only one pillar to God's house, which is indeed the house itself.But, pressing the analogy a bit too far, pillars come in sets. (A single pillar is a pedastel). So it makes little sense to speak of "the" pillar.
We'd better throw out the whole scant Bible, then.
Agreed, pressing the analogy too far. Paul's point may be that, in this case, there is only one pillar to God's house, which is indeed the house itself.
What other pillars and foundations would Paul have considered, beside the church? If none will dare to suggest another, as now seems rather likely, the definite article is indicated for translators, and it is incompetent or mischievous to fail to use it.
At the time, yes.In Psalm 19, there are two who testify to the truth about God. The one is the word of God, which at the time was borne witness to by the testimony of the nation of Israel.
So there are two pillars. Still not very stable for a house. To say nothing of two foundations.The other is the creation of God; Saint Paul later expounding that what can be known about God is plain to people, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made.
That implies the definite article. Particularly with all those capitals! It is the 'a' that is very suspect.Ok. I spoke at length with my Greek friend. He said the following in reference to the relevant part of 1 Timothy 3:15.
The best translation of this into English is:
"The Church of the Living God, Pillar and Foundation of Truth."
He's got so many others, though.He also said that he doesn't have this kind of problem because he reads the Septuagint...etc
That implies the definite article. Particularly with all those capitals! It is the 'a' that is very suspect.
He's got so many others, though.
He does sound interesting. If he watches his diet he could go on a long time yet.He's a great guy Mid 50's about 6'4 long grey hair and a long gray beard. He is Orthodox, so he brought up the filioque and told me that the Western Church is in schism, as usual.
He's a piece of work. Very interesting individual.
However, he has recently been diagnosed with diabetes and had a kidney removed in July because of a tumor. But he is doing better. Great guy.
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