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Encouragement for Biblical Creationists Regarding Evolution

NobleMouse

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Happy [belated] New Year everyone!

A note of encouragement to those who are biblical creationists. The dogmatic arguments against the historicity and truth of the Bible every year can leave one feeling discouraged, but there are many good reasons for believing the word of God and to question the long-held views of science (in particular evolution) and I'll list just a few below:

1. Yes, the ultimate purpose of the Bible is so that we can know God (and by His grace, come to salvation by faith in Jesus Christ); however, Christianity is not a "blind" faith and the Bible is also a historical book. Every year, archaeological evidence surfaces that fits with biblical accounts. Just recently I watched the following video regarding Mt. Sinai that some may find interesting:

2. Just at a time when church leaders today are expected and sometimes pressured to acquiesce to the evolutionary paradigm so as not to appear intellectually lacking, more evolutionary biologists continue to turn away from neo-Darwinian evolution. Worth noting, this hypothesis does a really good job of explaining the small changes that result in variability within created life forms; however, natural selection acting on random mutations lacks the explanatory power to show how new novel information is created, how new integrated systems are created, and how new body plans are produced. The following video (warning is long: ~2.5 hrs) goes into detail discussing the challenges of neo-Darwinian evolution and some of this time is Q&A, including rebuttals against the position that challenges exist within neo-Darwinian evolution with responses from the speakers:
(I do not advocate ID as a result of a "non-biblical higher power", and do want to point out that Stephen Meyer is a Christian and holds to an old earth view)

3. The beliefs held within science are not unanimous. For example, it is not only the hard-nosed conservative that rejects evolution on some religious basis as numerous groups from varying backgrounds and beliefs also find neo-Darwinian evolution difficult and unconvincing:
Questioning evolution is neither science denial nor the preserve of creationists

4. There is quite a bit of hype and popularization that goes on within mainstream science - perhaps to help generate interest and attract funding (which I'm in general not opposed to the idea of trying to gain interest/funding for a cause), but these efforts also cast a sort of light that creates the false perception that the "popular" views (therefore "good", therefore "true") and also be used to downplay anything to the contrary no matter how true, how relevant, or how well it fits the evidence. The following was written by Dr. Jason Lisle as follow-up to an interview he had with a CNN reporter where exactly this kind of thing happened:
The Rest of the Story – Jason Lisle's Blog

When it comes to the reconstruction of historical events, there is very little "concrete" evidence that results in definitive answers--that is the nature of the past: it happened, and now it is gone. I don't believe anyone here is opposed to good science, but rather question some of the assumptions and tenets by which evidence is interpreted to fit a particular scientific paradigm. Historical science is not the same as operational/observational science - historical scientific study (regardless of the area of discipline) always relies on some degree of assumptions and inferences and therefore does not conclusively prove or disprove anything. For example, a DNA study of my grandfather and myself would not conclusively show we are related (though it may hint to it); however, a review of birth records will conclusively prove we are related. If DNA cannot even conclusively show my grandfather and I are related, how much less then, can it conclusively show that various life forms are "evolutionarily related" though separated [allegedly] by hundreds of thousands if not millions of generations?

Remember, when someone is arguing that the Bible is wrong and evolution has been proven as a "scientific fact", but has no direct evidence of asserting their position from observation and cannot replicate it where the results can be confirmed, then they are arguing from a position of ignorance. As in the case of the unguided process of evolution, the creationist is not arguing from a position of ignorance, for the following reasons:

1. No experiment has been shown to replicate the life seen today from something like a one-celled bacteria and applying mutations then watching to see what natural selection will do. All this has ever produced is small variability within created life, but never resulting in new novel information, new integrated systems, and new body plans.
2. The fossil record does not support Darwinian evolution. There are approx. 17 known abrupt appearances of already complex life reflected in the fossil record (most well-known being the Cambrian explosion).
3. Aside from lack of conclusive evidence for neo-Darwinian evolution, there IS evidence in favor of these life forms being created. However you define information (whether Shannon's theory or otherwise), the only known source of information is from the mind of an intelligent being and Christians would say this "source" is God.
4. Rather than committing an informal logical fallacy of inference from #3 above, the Bible also affirms God did in fact create life and did not just stop there but also specified the general sequence and time span of these events. It cracks me up when this is cited as a "literal inerpretation" as if it is some kind of unnatural way of interpreting what is written. I expect everyone reading this to take what I have written literally, unless I should explicitly state otherwise (just to avoid confusion - ha ha). Again, we can attempt to infer otherwise by trying to reconstruct the past by applying assumptions used in a somewhat scientific study, or we can rely on the only written record of these events.

I hope this is of some encouragement. If anyone has other evidence supporting why they believe the biblical account of creation, please feel free to share! Again, it is by faith we believe, but Christianity is not a blind faith. Also, if anyone has reasons for why they do not believe the biblical account of creation and would like to share reasons for their position as well, those are also welcome.

God bless!
 

Job 33:6

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"2. The fossil record does not support Darwinian evolution. There are approx. 17 known abrupt appearances of already complex life reflected in the fossil record (most well-known being the Cambrian explosion)."

I dont know why people keep repeating this. The cambrian explosion and the appearance of life in the fossil record throughout the cambrian, appears over the span of tens of millions of years. Abrupt? Not really. In geologic terms, sort of. In biological terms? No, not at all.
 
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NobleMouse

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"2. The fossil record does not support Darwinian evolution. There are approx. 17 known abrupt appearances of already complex life reflected in the fossil record (most well-known being the Cambrian explosion)."

I dont know why people keep repeating this. The cambrian explosion and the appearance of life in the fossil record throughout the cambrian, appears over the span of tens of millions of years. Abrupt? Not really. In geologic terms, sort of. In biological terms? No, not at all.
Thank you for replying. Do you have a few key reasons for why you believe what you believe?
 
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Job 33:6

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For example

Cambrian Stage 2 - Wikipedia

The first shelled organisms appear in the fossil record 560-550 million years ago.

Common mollusks and conical shelled life appeared around 535

Reef building biota and brachiopods around 530

But its not until around 520 that your trilobites appear.

The conventional end of the explosion isnt until around 510 mya.
 
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Job 33:6

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So, what im pointing out here is that, you get the appearance of what are, primitive shellfish around 560, but its not until 535 that you get things like mollusks, but even further, you dont get your arthropods and trilobites until further down, 520. But even further, their traces appear 10 million years before their bodies do, because they were soft shelled.

So, even if someone felt as though 20 to 30 million years was "abrupt" (which in biological terms, its not) they still have to accept that, soft shelled organisms in large, pre-date shelled organisms, which of course shells play a significant role in what fossilizes and what doesn't.

With these, there is nothing present about this that opposes the theory of evolution because nothing in evolution states that such a diversification couldnt occur in the span of 20+ million years or more.

Really the time between the first shellfish and the end of the cambrian explosion, spans 50+ million years.
 
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Job 33:6

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"Really the time between the first shellfish and the end of the cambrian explosion, spans 50+ million years."

And in geologic terms, someone could argue that this is...abrupt. But its not really abrupt in consideration with what is suggested as rates of evolution in biological terms.
 
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Job 33:6

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And actually, not to go off on too much of a tangent here, but really if you consider that non shelled organisms pre-date shelled organisms, this is something that evolution would actually predict, both through genetics but also just common sense. A shell is kind of like an external addition to an organism.

Turtles used to not have shells and they evolved shells, as seen in the fossil record with intermediate half shelled turtles.

First Known Turtle Had Shell Shortcomings

So it follows that one might predict that the first life also, presumably wouldnt have shells because these are...almost like additional defenses that would theoretically need to be evolved. So if evolution were true, it ought to follow that shelled organisms come after non shelled, which they do, over the span of tens of millions of years before, throughout and after the cambrian explosion.
 
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Job 33:6

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I just want to add one last thing here. If evolution were true, we might also expect life to start out very small, and to grow large. Rather than the first life in the fossil record being something like elephants and brachiosaurs, we might expect the first life to be something like...microscopic shelled organisms and macroscopic soft bodied organisms.

And this is exactly what we find in the fossil record. We find microscopic worms and eventually big worms, then big worms with fins, then fish etc.
 
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Job 33:6

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And...

of other places where diversification is evident in the fossil record, such as the mammalian diversification, are diversifications that occur right after mass extinctions such as when the dinosaurs were hit by an asteroid.

Which is also something evolution could predict if there were niches open to be taken advantage of after dominant species die out. Which is to say that of course mammals would diversify after the dinosaurs went extinct, because dinosaurs were no longer dominating the land around them, and they wouldnt be eaten by T-rex.
 
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The Barbarian

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"2. The fossil record does not support Darwinian evolution. There are approx. 17 known abrupt appearances of already complex life reflected in the fossil record (most well-known being the Cambrian explosion)."

I dont know why people keep repeating this. The cambrian explosion and the appearance of life in the fossil record throughout the cambrian, appears over the span of tens of millions of years. Abrupt? Not really. In geologic terms, sort of. In biological terms? No, not at all.

And of course, we now know that primitive animals existed in the Precambrian, so it didn't start in the Cambrian. The "explosion" seems to have been the rapid increase in niches available after full-body exoskeletons evoloved late in the Precambrian or early in the Cambrian.
 
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The Barbarian

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It's not that all creationists reject a biblical account of creation. Only those who still cling to the original version produced by the Adventists in the 20th century do. It is possible to reconcile some forms of YE creationism with the Biblical account. But not all of them.

And OE creationism has no conflicts with scripture at all.
 
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NobleMouse

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And...

of other places where diversification is evident in the fossil record, such as the mammalian diversification, are diversifications that occur right after mass extinctions such as when the dinosaurs were hit by an asteroid.

Which is also something evolution could predict if there were niches open to be taken advantage of after dominant species die out. Which is to say that of course mammals would diversify after the dinosaurs went extinct, because dinosaurs were no longer dominating the land around them, and they wouldnt be eaten by T-rex.
Thank you for sharing these!
 
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NobleMouse

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Fellow creationists - just came across this great video with Kurt Wise the other day regarding the fossil record, the predictions of evolution (and in contrast the predictions of creation / flood models) that you may find interesting (about an hour long). As I indicated, Kurt does get into the flood model a little bit (which was not my intended thrust of this thread), but as a relevant understanding for interpreting the fossil record in light of creation as contrasted with the evolutionary model. Comparatives are made around the following topics:

- Fossil preservation
- Species completeness
- Diversity / disparity
- First appearance order
- Change up section
- Intermediates
- Complexity
- Bioturbation

Link:

God bless!
 
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The Barbarian

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"At this point in time, the largest challenge from the stratomorphic intermediate record appears to this author to come from the fossil record of the whales. There is a strong stratigraphic series of archaeocete genera claimed by Gingerich (Ambulocetus, Rhodocetus, and Prozeuglodon[or the similar-aged Basilosaurus] ) followed on the one hand by modern mysticetes, and on the other hand by the family Squalodontidae and then modern odontocetes.

That same series is also a morphological series: Ambulocetus with the largest hind legs; Rhodocetus
with hindlegs one-third smaller; Prozeuglodon with 6 inch hindlegs; and the remaining whales with virtually no to no hind legs: toothed mysticetes before non-toothed baleen whales; the squalodontid odontocetes with telescoped skull but triangular teeth; and the modern odontocetes with telescoped skulls and conical teeth. This series of fossils is thus a very powerful stratomorphic series. Because the land mammal-to-whale transition (theorized by macroevolutionary theory and evidenced by the fossil record) is a land-to sea transition, the relative order of land mammals, archaeocetes, and modernwhales is not explainable in the conventional Flood geology method (transgressing Flood waters). Furthermore, whale fossils are only known in Cenozoic (and thus post-Flood) sediments. This seems to run counter to the intuitive
expectation that the whales should have been found in or even throughout Flood sediments. At present creation theory has no good explanation for the fossil record of whales."
Kurt Wise Toward a Creationist Understanding of Transitional Forms


Wise goes on to say that there may be some ways to explain this from a creationist perspective, which would require a change in YE creationist interpretations of scripture. That would be a problem for those creationists who have declared that YE as it is, is clearly God's words in Genesis, but certainly not for all creationists.

Wise further suggests that an investigation of the Loch Ness monster might shed some light on this problem.

 
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Job 33:6

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That actually makes a lot of sense^. That a land to sea transition in the cenozoic would be an issue if the cenozoic is perceived as post flood strata. Thats nice of him to be honest about that one.
 
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The Barbarian

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He's an odd creationist. He has the scientific knowledge to understand the issues, and he's relentlessly honest about the facts. So he has to occasionally admit that he has no way to explain certain evidence that seems to disprove his beliefs.

There are a few others like him.

Q. Why couldn't this have happened forty or
fifty million years ago?


A. It could have, but my own personal opinion
is that it didn't.


Q. Because why?


A. Because my view of earth's history is not that,
that life on earth has been that long or that old.


Q. Is there any data that you developed in your
work in Yellowstone that would preclude the earth being
that old?


A. No.
...
Q. Is the Bible an inspiration for your research
in any way?


A. No, I don't think so.


Q. Is it, in its literal truth, a source of
scientific learning for you?


A. No.


Q. Is it a source of scientific truth which sets
forth parameters for your research, your work?


A. To some extent, yes.


Q. To what extent would that be?


A. It provides basic concepts and basic
understandings that will influence a person's research.


Q. What basic concepts and understandings would
those be?


A. Of course, we are talking about creation and
catastrophe.


Q. By which you mean the creation of the world
and the universe in six days and the Noachian flood?


A. Yes.
...
Q. Do you believe it has been in existence for
less than 500 million years?


A. My personal belief is that. As far as scienti-
fic evidence is concerned, there wouldn't be any direct
evidence on it.


Q. And there is no direct evidence that it's less
than 500 million years?


A. That is right.
...


MR. KLASFELD: Q. Do you believe that testability
is a hallmark of science?


A. Yes, it should be.


Q. In what sense is creation science testable?
Is creation week testable?


MR. CHILDS: Scientifically?


MR. KLASFELD: Q. As a science.


A. It is not testable scientifically.

Testimony of Dr. Harold Coffin, McLean vs. Arkansas
(Arkansas Creationist Trial)
 
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Job 33:6

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He's an odd creationist. He has the scientific knowledge to understand the issues, and he's relentlessly honest about the facts. So he has to occasionally admit that he has no way to explain certain evidence that seems to disprove his beliefs.

There are a few others like him.

Q. Why couldn't this have happened forty or
fifty million years ago?


A. It could have, but my own personal opinion
is that it didn't.


Q. Because why?


A. Because my view of earth's history is not that,
that life on earth has been that long or that old.


Q. Is there any data that you developed in your
work in Yellowstone that would preclude the earth being
that old?


A. No.
...
Q. Is the Bible an inspiration for your research
in any way?


A. No, I don't think so.


Q. Is it, in its literal truth, a source of
scientific learning for you?


A. No.


Q. Is it a source of scientific truth which sets
forth parameters for your research, your work?


A. To some extent, yes.


Q. To what extent would that be?


A. It provides basic concepts and basic
understandings that will influence a person's research.


Q. What basic concepts and understandings would
those be?


A. Of course, we are talking about creation and
catastrophe.


Q. By which you mean the creation of the world
and the universe in six days and the Noachian flood?


A. Yes.
...
Q. Do you believe it has been in existence for
less than 500 million years?


A. My personal belief is that. As far as scienti-
fic evidence is concerned, there wouldn't be any direct
evidence on it.


Q. And there is no direct evidence that it's less
than 500 million years?


A. That is right.
...


MR. KLASFELD: Q. Do you believe that testability
is a hallmark of science?


A. Yes, it should be.


Q. In what sense is creation science testable?
Is creation week testable?


MR. CHILDS: Scientifically?


MR. KLASFELD: Q. As a science.


A. It is not testable scientifically.

Testimony of Dr. Harold Coffin, McLean vs. Arkansas
(Arkansas Creationist Trial)

Who is mr childs? Or is this a discussion with Kurt Wise?
 
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The Barbarian

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Ah, this is Dr. Harold Coffin, a YE creationist, testifying in McLean vs. Arkansas, in the Arkansas creationism trial. Ad one point, he testified that if not for his understanding of scripture, the evidence would lead him to think the world was very old.

Not sure who the other gentlemen are.
 
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SkyWriting

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I dont know why people keep repeating this. The cambrian explosion and the appearance of life in the fossil record throughout the cambrian, appears over the span of tens of millions of years. Abrupt? Not really. In geologic terms, sort of. In biological terms? No, not at all.

Simple? No. Life in any form is possibly infinitely complex. Even one cell.
 
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Job 33:6

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Simple? No. Life in any form is possibly infinitely complex. Even one cell.

The OP suggests the abrupt appearance of complex life, and references the Cambrian explosion. My response is simply stating that the Cambrian explosion was anything but abrupt.

See post #4 and 5 etc.
 
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