Ellen White on the Sabbath

Lysimachus · Oct 9, 2012

Stryder06 said:
Testimony of a Sikh to Christianity through reading the book Great Controversy - YouTube

Amen!!!

Ellen White was TRULY a prophet of the Lord!

....despite the fact that it's some TOUGH medicine for the world to swallow.

MoreCoffee · Oct 10, 2012

Upon another Sabbath, as Jesus entered a synagogue. He saw there a man who had a withered hand. The Pharisees watched Him, eager to see what He would do. The Saviour well knew that in healing on the Sabbath He would be regarded as a transgressor, but He did not hesitate to break down the wall of traditional requirements that barricaded the Sabbath. Jesus bade the afflicted man stand forth, and then asked, "It is lawful to do good on the Sabbath days, or to do evil? to save life, or to kill?" It was a maxim among the Jews that a failure to do good, when one had opportunity, was to do evil; to neglect to save life was to kill. Thus Jesus met the rabbis on their own ground. "But they held their peace. And when He had looked round about on them with anger, being grieved for the hardness of their hearts, He saith unto the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it out: and his hand was restored whole as the other." Mark 3:4, 5.
When questioned, "Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath days?" Jesus answered, "What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the Sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out? How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the Sabbath days." Matt. 12:10-12. (THE DESIRE OF AGES by Ellen White, The Sabbath, page 286)

And he entered again into the synagogue; and there was a man there which had a withered hand. And they watched him, whether he would heal him on the sabbath day; that they might accuse him. And he saith unto the man which had the withered hand, Stand forth. And he saith unto them, Is it lawful to do good on the sabbath days, or to do evil? to save life, or to kill? But they held their peace. And when he had looked round about on them with anger, being grieved for the hardness of their hearts, he saith unto the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it out: and his hand was restored whole as the other. And the Pharisees went forth, and straightway took counsel with the Herodians against him, how they might destroy him. Mark 3:1-6 KJV

And when he was departed thence, he went into their synagogue: And, behold, there was a man which had his hand withered. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him. And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out? How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days. Then saith he to the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it forth; and it was restored whole, like as the other. Matthew 12:9-13 KJV

Why is it plural "sabbath days" rather than singular? I checked the Greek and it is also plural.

John Gill comments on Mark 3:4,

is it lawful to do good on the sabbath days, or to do evil, to save life, or to kill? The Vulgate Latin, Syriac, Arabic, and Persic versions read, or "to destroy", as in Luk_6:9, To do evil, kill, or destroy, are not lawful at any time; and to do good, and to save life, must be right at all times: our Lord has a particular view to the Scribes and Pharisees, and the question is put home to their own consciences; whose hearts and thoughts, designs and views, were all open to Christ; and who were now watching to do evil to him, and even to destroy and take away his life: for the violation of the sabbath was death by the law, and this was what they sought to accuse him of: now he puts the question to them, and makes them judges which must appear most right and just in the sight of God and men, for him to heal this poor man of his withered hand, though on the sabbath day; which would be doing a good and beneficent action to him, whereby his life would be saved, and preserved with comfort and usefulness, and he would be in a capacity of getting his livelihood; or for them to cherish an evil intention against him, to seek to bring mischief on him; and not only destroy his character and usefulness as much as in them lay, but even take away his very life also: he leaves it with them to consider of which was most agreeable to the law of God, the nature of a sabbath, and the good of mankind;

I can't help but think that the comment by John Gill and the comments by others (Albert Barnes) are far more accurate and profound than are Ellen White's. However, there is nothing objectionable, that I can see, in the above paragraphs from Ellen White.

But returning to the use of the plural "sabbath days" it left me wondering if that use was merely a circumlocution for "7th day" or if, perhaps, it was a reference to the multiplicity of sabbaths that the Judaism of the day observed? If it is the former then the passage is as John Gill describes, a refutation of the accusation of sabbath breaking brought against the Lord, if, however, it is the latter then the passage is both a refutation of the accusation and link to saint Paul's use of the plural in Colossians:

Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God. Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, (Touch not; taste not; handle not; Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men? Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh. Colossians 2:16-23 KJV

Cribstyl · Oct 10, 2012

Stryder06 said:
I don't think I'll ever understand why it's so hard for anyone to point out the terms of the new covenant. Saying it's "in the New Testament" isn't saying much. From my reading of the NT, we don't see much of a record of God speaking to the people, until Revelation at least.

If God spoke the terms of the OC, wouldn't it be logical to believe He spoke the terms of the NC as well, thus avoiding any possible confusion?

You might understand to some degree if you tried to.
True or False.... You believe that the Old Covenant is what God and the people declared in Exd 19:5-8 rather than what Moses wrote the words of the covenant were. (the 10.com) You fail to consider that most protestants believe that the Old Covenant is the law, which also the prophets were subjected to.

True or False...You also believe that the New Covenant is the words of Jeremiah the prophet.

bugkiller · Oct 10, 2012

Is the use of sabbaths (sabbath days) by Jesus a reference to very common weekly sabbath occuring very frequently opposed to the festival and new moon sabbaths. Jesus was not referring to the new moon or festival sabbaths. It is not what the Jews ask.

Many thinks for pointing out the plural used here.

bugkiller

LittleLambofJesus · Oct 10, 2012

Originally Posted by Stryder06

Testimony of a Sikh to Christianity through reading the book Great Controversy - YouTube

Lysimachus said:
Amen!!!

Ellen White was TRULY a prophet of the Lord!

....despite the fact that it's some TOUGH medicine for the world to swallow.

For some reason, I tend to gag when I swallow that medicine...

MoreCoffee · Oct 10, 2012

LittleLambofJesus said:
Originally Posted by Stryder06

Testimony of a Sikh to Christianity through reading the book Great Controversy - YouTube

For some reason, I tend to gag when I swallow that medicine...

I have a copy of THE GREAT CONTROVERSY by Ellen White; it looks a little bit like THE TRAIL OF BLOOD by Dr. James Milton Carroll which is an infamous booklet full of unreliable and false claims. I have not yet read Ellen White book so I cannot say if it is full of unreliable and false claims. I scanned its contents and it is, of course, savage about the popes and the Catholic church, but that is par for the course in 19th century Restorationist literature.

Stryder06 · Oct 10, 2012

MoreCoffee said:
I have a copy of THE GREAT CONTROVERSY by Ellen White; it looks a little bit like THE TRAIL OF BLOOD by Dr. James Milton Carroll which is an infamous booklet full of unreliable and false claims. I have not yet read Ellen White book so I cannot say if it is full of unreliable and false claims. I scanned its contents and it is, of course, savage about the popes and the Catholic church, but that is par for the course in 19th century Restorationist literature.

Perhaps you should read it. You might like it

MoreCoffee · Oct 10, 2012

Stryder06 said:
Perhaps you should read it. You might like it

I may read parts of it; it is, however, unlikely that I will like it when a considerable proportion of it rubbishes my religion.

Stryder06 · Oct 10, 2012

MoreCoffee said:
I may read parts of it; it is, however, unlikely that I will like it when a considerable proportion of it rubbishes my religion.

Parts are a start I guess, but the whole is what you would need to read. And the vast majority of that book has little to do with your church. There is a larger story being explained in that book, which is why it is so powerful, and has worked to change the lives of many people.

Believe it or not, I've heard testimony of Catholics who have read the book and come to believe Sr White was a prophet.

Let the Lord lead you.

MoreCoffee · Oct 10, 2012

Stryder06 said:
Parts are a start I guess, but the whole is what you would need to read. And the vast majority of that book has little to do with your church. There is a larger story being explained in that book, which is why it is so powerful, and has worked to change the lives of many people.

Believe it or not, I've heard testimony of Catholics who have read the book and come to believe Sr White was a prophet.

Let the Lord lead you.

I have no interesting in becoming a Seventh Day Adventist. It is not my style

Stryder06 · Oct 10, 2012

MoreCoffee said:
I have no interesting in becoming a Seventh Day Adventist. It is not my style

If it's not true, then you have nothing to worry about. If it is however, then avoiding it because it's not your style, would be the wrong decision to make.

MoreCoffee · Oct 10, 2012

Stryder06 said:
If it's not true, then you have nothing to worry about. If it is however, then avoiding it because it's not your style, would be the wrong decision to make.

One does not live in this world forever so there is time to lose, and I am a Catholic, my own religion is true and I am not searching for some other truth. Jesus is enough, more than enough, for the faithfiul. Moses and dietary laws, 7th day observance and all the other trappings of Seventh Day Adventism are your territory, to me they are of anthropological interest only - like knowing about Jehovah's witnesses or knowing about Islam.

Stryder06 · Oct 10, 2012

MoreCoffee said:
One does not live in this world forever so there is time to lose, and I am a Catholic, my own religion is true and I am not searching for some other truth. Jesus is enough, more than enough, for the faithfiul. Moses and dietary laws, 7th day observance and all the other trappings of Seventh Day Adventism are your territory, to me they are of anthropological interest only - like knowing about Jehovah's witnesses or knowing about Islam.

edit

MoreCoffee · Oct 10, 2012

Stryder06 said:
Trappings? Never heard it like that, but I guess that's to be expected. As I already stated, I didn't come back to argue, just to voice my opinion about what I believe and why. If what I am is trapped, then I hope to remain in bondage till the day of redemption.

As far as I am aware the word "trappings" is not related to the word "trap" except by a coincidental spelling similarity. Trappings means:

articles of equipment or dress, especially of an ornamental character.
conventional adornment; characteristic signs: trappings of democracy.
Sometimes, trapping. an ornamental covering for a horse; caparison.

Stryder06 · Oct 10, 2012

MoreCoffee said:
As far as I am aware the word "trappings" is not related to the word "trap" except by a coincidental spelling similarity. Trappings means:

articles of equipment or dress, especially of an ornamental character.

conventional adornment; characteristic signs: trappings of democracy.

Sometimes, trapping. an ornamental covering for a horse; caparison.

Forgive my ignorance again. Totally had that definition wrong.

MoreCoffee · Oct 10, 2012

Stryder06 said:
Forgive my ignorance again. Totally had that definition wrong.

That's okay. Chatting can be educational

Lysimachus · Oct 10, 2012

The expression "sabbath days" by Jesus is not the same as "sabbath days" in Colossians 2:16.

The Greek word is different, without question.

In Matthew 12:5, it's "Sabbasin: Noun : Dative : Plural : Neuter"

In Colossians 2:16 , it's "Sabbatwn: Genetive : Plural : Neuter"

The difference here is that Paul qualifies "which" Sabbaths he is talking about....

...in verse 17 he says... those "WHICH are a shadow of things to come".

When Jesus used the "Plural" for Sabbath Days, he was referring to many Sabbaths as in "many Tuesdays".

But when Paul said "sabbatwn", he was referring to those festival sabbaths "WHICH" were a shadow of things to come"--those that were in "meat" and "drink" offerings.

Nothing about holydays, meat offerings, or drink offerings is mentioned in the 4th commandment Sabbath, which existed prior to the Mosaic Law.

So nice try, but epic fail.

MoreCoffee · Oct 10, 2012

Lysimachus said:
The expression "sabbath days" by Jesus is not the same as "sabbath days" in Colossians 2:16.

The Greek word is different, without question.

In Matthew 12:5, it's "Sabbasin: Noun : Dative : Plural : Neuter"

In Colossians 2:16 , it's "Sabbatwn: Genetive : Plural : Neuter"

The difference here is that Paul qualifies "which" Sabbaths he is talking about....

...in verse 17 he says... those "WHICH are a shadow of things to come".

When Jesus used the "Plural" for Sabbath Days, he was referring to many Sabbaths as in "many Tuesdays".

But when Paul said "sabbatwn", he was referring to those festival sabbaths "WHICH" were a shadow of things to come"--those that were in "meat" and "drink" offerings.

Nothing about holydays, meat offerings, or drink offerings is mentioned in the 4th commandment Sabbath, which existed prior to the Mosaic Law.

So nice try, but epic fail.

Thanks for your research; you are correct that the case of the word used in each passage differs one being genitive and the other dative. Do you realise that the case is reflected in the translation into English by the use of appropriate adjectives and that the noun "sabbaths" is unchanged just as the root in the Greek remains unchanged? So in fact what Jesus says in Mark 3 and what Paul says in Colossians 2 do in fact both use "sabbaths" and there is nothing in the words used to differentiate them that is not properly captured in the English translations.

You are incorrect about Colossians 2:17 differentiating the weekly sabbaths from the other sabbaths, but some people do believe that it is the other sabbaths that are discontinued. It seems to be a matter of doctrine filtering interpretations rather than the text of the scripture determining the meaning in this case. If you prefer to think of the passage as preserving an obligation to keep the 7th day then that will be because your denomination's doctrine tells you so rather than because the passage tells you so.

Let no man, therefore, judge you in meat or in drink.

That is, for not abstaining from meats, called unclean, for drinking out of a cup without a cover, (see Numbers xix.) or for not keeping the Jewish festivals. For these were but shadows, types and figures of future things to be fulfilled in the new law of Christ: but the body is of Christ, (ver. 17.) i.e. was the body, the truth, the substance signified by these shadows and types. (Witham)
He means with regard to the Jewish observations of the distinction of clean and unclean meats; and of the festivals, new moons, and sabbaths; as being no longer obligatory. (Challoner)

Stryder06 · Oct 10, 2012

In any case, in regards to Col, Paul says that they are a shadow of things to come. The admonishment is not to stop doing something, but to continue on in doing that thing, not allowing others to judge you because of it. A shadow can only pass away when the substance has come.

MoreCoffee · Oct 10, 2012

Stryder06 said:
In any case, in regards to Col, Paul says that they are a shadow of things to come. The admonishment is not to stop doing something, but to continue on in doing that thing, not allowing others to judge you because of it. A shadow can only pass away when the substance has come.

A shadow can only pass away when the reality is present, as you say, but isn't saint Paul's point that Christ is the reality and the things he mentioned are mere shadows?

Let no man therefore judge you

in meat, or
in drink, or
in respect of an holyday, or
of the new moon, or
of the sabbath days:

Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

John Wesley says:

Therefore - Seeing these things are so. Let none judge you - That is, regard none who judge you. In meat or drink - For not observing the ceremonial law in these or any other particulars. Or in respect of a yearly feast, the new moon, or the weekly Jewish sabbaths.

Ellen White on the Sabbath

Vindicating our Historic Biblical Foundations

Repentance works.

Veteran

Well-Known Member

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Repentance works.

Check the signature

Repentance works.

Check the signature

Repentance works.

Check the signature

Repentance works.

Check the signature

Repentance works.

Check the signature

Repentance works.

Vindicating our Historic Biblical Foundations

Repentance works.

Check the signature

Repentance works.

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency