Ellen White on the Sabbath

Elder 111 said:

1. Yes the promise is everlasting life to the faithful in Christ but everlasting death to the unfaithful. The former does not negate the latter. But then again that might be what most christains believe, for when you attend funerals today all you hear is that he or she is in heaven regardless of what life they lived.
2. Jesus states that all that sin, that is violate the ten commandments will suffer eternal death. The Sabbath is part of the ten commandments.
3. No one is saved by Sabbath keeping, just like they are not saved by honoring their parents or by not saved by not stealing or just because they do lie. They are certainly not save by going to church on Sunday either.
4. Since one is not saved by not stealing one should steal, or since one is not saved by not telling lies one should lie. It's a ridiculous agruement when applies to the Sabbath just as when applied to the other commandments.

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You do have my sympathy. It appears that you want to be judged by the Law you profess to keep and actually believe that you will be found guiltless. If so, then God will be a liar because He has explicitly told us in Psalms 14 and 53 that there is none righteous, not even one. You yourself have yet to obey the Sabbath ordinances as given by God in His Law.

MoreCoffee said:

I made a small alteration in the reply by Elder 111 so that Elder 111's numbered replies correspond to the numbers I've introduced into my questions. This ought to make reading the posts easier.




I was wondering, did you answer the questions that I asked? Each question could be answered in only a few words.

Want to try again? Or shall I take it that your answers are actually:

1. I do not agree, I think that sabbath keeping is a prerequisite for receiving the promises of God.
2. I believe that a man or a woman is saved by sabbath keeping.
3. I do not agree that one is saved if one does not keep sabbath because I do believe that sabbath keeping is necessary for salvation.

Here are the questions again:

1. Sabbath keeping is not prerequisite for the promises of God, do you not agree?
2. A man or a woman is not saved by sabbath keeping are they?
3. And since one is not saved by sabbath keeping do you not agree that one is not lost by failing to keep sabbath?

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1. I do not agree. Sabbath keeping is required by God. Not man! Not Moses! Not SDA'S. GOD!.
2. No one is saved by keeping the Sabbath as with any other commandments.
3. One is lost if they refuse to keep the Sabbath as well as if they refused to reframe from stealing. Can a thief get to heaven? Why should a Sabbath breaker? Are they not all commandments of God?

Rev. 22: 12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

bbbbbbb said:

[/list]
You do have my sympathy. It appears that you want to be judged by the Law you profess to keep and actually believe that you will be found guiltless. If so, then God will be a liar because He has explicitly told us in Psalms 14 and 53 that there is none righteous, not even one. You yourself have yet to obey the Sabbath ordinances as given by God in His Law.

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Only the Sabbath? You mean that you and I have been successful in keeping the other nine? Or have we all failed to keep all 10? If so what is the difference if I fall short in keeping the Sabbath as well as the others?
That is what Christ and forgivenesss is for.

bugkiller said:

So then are all men (mankind) nothing but fools only falling for a lie?

Is your argument that one obeys the law because they simply do not murder, lie, etc.?

bugkiller

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No they do not if they keep not the Sabbath.
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all.

TruthWave7 said:

Do you deny the testimony of John the Revelator? The Apostle John saw in vision, the Ark of the Covenant in the heavenly sanctuary. Its recorded in Revelation 11:19

"Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant. And there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake and a severe hailstorm." (And wherever the Ark is the 10 Commandments were inside). Think about this: Who would be able to steal the original 10 Commandments in heaven!?

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Truthwave,
You seem to look at Revelation as if it were a vision of Ellen White. Revelation 11:19 doesn’t say that John saw the Ark. It says that everyone will see the Ark in heaven at some point in time in preparation for the Second Coming. It says “within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant.”

Whether non-believers will see this vision from Above or whether it will be restricted to Christians could be debated. What is clear is that something will be revealed.

Only an SDA would read Revelation without looking for symbolism. What does “the ark” mean? The Ark of the New Covenant would be the Cross. In their trek across the desert, the ancient Israelites followed the Ark, which followed the pillar of fire. Aaronic priests preached the Ten Commandments. Christians preach the Cross, the Blood of Christ. Is that so complicated?


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bbbbbbb said:

[/list]You do have my sympathy. It appears that you want to be judged by the Law you profess to keep and actually believe that you will be found guiltless. If so, then God will be a liar because He has explicitly told us in Psalms 14 and 53 that there is none righteous, not even one. You yourself have yet to obey the Sabbath ordinances as given by God in His Law.

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I have used these very verses often only to be ignored.

bugkiller

Elder 111 said:

1. I do not agree. Sabbath keeping is required by God. Not man! Not Moses! Not SDA'S. GOD!.
2. No one is saved by keeping the Sabbath as with any other commandments.
3. One is lost if they refuse to keep the Sabbath as well as if they refused to reframe from stealing. Can a thief get to heaven? Why should a Sabbath breaker? Are they not all commandments of God?

Rev. 22: 12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

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Where in the NT does one find such an obligation to keep the sabbath?

What I clearly hear you saying is that keeping the law gives one the right to the Tree of Life and asmission to Heaven. I would call this salvation without the blood of Jesus. Can one come to the wedding improperly dressed in filthy rags? NO!!!!
Jesus clearly said you can only get in through Him. This excludes the law and some kind of submission to it.

bugkiller

Lysimachus,

Can you answer a post without attacking the person you are talking to?
Christ said to look for fruits of the spirit. I’m not seeing them in SDA’s.


Lysimachus in post #835:
“2. Revelation 21:22 is talking about AFTER THE MILLLENNIUM.

Obviously there will be no more sin, so what will there be a need for the Temple? It will be removed after sin and sinners are no more.”



“I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.”
--Revelation 21:22 NIV

If this is true of New Jerusalem after the Millenium, would it not be true in Heaven as well? What need is there of a temple where the glory of God, Christ and the Holy Spirit are visibly manifest at all times?


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Elder 111 said:

Only the Sabbath? You mean that you and I have been successful in keeping the other nine? Or have we all failed to keep all 10? If so what is the difference if I fall short in keeping the Sabbath as well as the others?
That is what Christ and forgivenesss is for.

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Is this not worthless law as in cheap grace?

bugkiller

Is there a structural temple in heaven where Christ serves in some way? St. Paul wrote much of the New Testament but he knows nothing about this. Instead, Paul emphasizes that the bodies of Christians are each a Temple of the Holy Spirit. If there was an actual temple with gates, an altar, courtyards, columns and porticos, and an Ark of the Covenant up there somewhere you think that Paul would mention that as well. We would expect him to say that the “Temple of the Holy Spirit” concept is not supposed to detract from the temple where Christ actually serves, if this were the case. St. Paul says no such thing, because there is no literal heavenly temple.

Paul makes the point about the Temple of the Holy Spirit in three different passages in Corinthians.

“Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit lives in you? If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy him; for God’s temple is sacred, and you are that temple.
--1 Corinthians 3:16-17 NIV

“Do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God?”
--1 Corinthians 6:19 NIV

“What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God.”
2 Corinthians 6:16 NIV


In Ephesians, Paul makes a related point but puts a different spin on it, painting a picture of a symbolic temple. Paul uses this symbolic temple to unite Jew and Gentile, instead of using it to continue Old Testament ritual and Old Testament ideas. Here Christ is the “chief cornerstone” of “God’s household” which “rises to become a holy temple.” Yet Christ does not serve in this temple as a priest or as a sacrifice--instead, He is a part of the building!

“Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God’s people and members of God’s household, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.”
--Ephesians 2:19-22 NIV



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Elder 111 said:

No they do not if they keep not the Sabbath.
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all.

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If one does not keep the sabbath as prescribed in the law are they keeping the sabbath? If not one just as well be a murderer. So would that not mean confessing one does not comply with the regulations of the sabbath mean they have no salvation? I would think that is willing sin by now after participating here at CF especially in sabbath and law threads.

Do not some point out here that knowingly sinning means one has no salvation?

bugkiller

Elder 111 said:

Oh! Will he not destroy all sinners at His coming?

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So is a sinner only a violator of the law or is a sinner someone that has not accepted the righteousness of Jesus Christ as required for admission to heaven and the right to eat from the Tree of Life?

According to the Scripture all are violators of the law. But the required righteousness does not come through the law as shown in Rom 4.

bugkiller

LittleLambofJesus said:

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I hear crickets chirping.....


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You two? me three. What is new?

bugkiller

MoreCoffee said:

What exactly is the crime in resting on Sunday?

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There is none, except one decides that one will defy God's law in doing so. How please would you expect God to be if He says 7 and you told Him no I will give you 1? What would you expect from God for defying HIm?

Originally Posted by Elder 111

bugkiller said:

Where in the NT does one find such an obligation to keep the sabbath?

What I clearly hear you saying is that keeping the law gives one the right to the Tree of Life and asmission to Heaven. I would call this salvation without the blood of Jesus. Can one come to the wedding improperly dressed in filthy rags? NO!!!!
Jesus clearly said you can only get in through Him. This excludes the law and some kind of submission to it.

bugkiller

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Now I have said no such thing! You have seen the bible say so, The word of God. Not me. I just quoted scripture, let no one say I said, but God did.

Dale said:

Is there a structural temple in heaven where Christ serves in some way? St. Paul wrote much of the New Testament but he knows nothing about this. Instead, Paul emphasizes that the bodies of Christians are each a Temple of the Holy Spirit. If there was an actual temple with gates, an altar, courtyards, columns and porticos, and an Ark of the Covenant up there somewhere you think that Paul would mention that as well. We would expect him to say that the “Temple of the Holy Spirit” concept is not supposed to detract from the temple where Christ actually serves, if this were the case. St. Paul says no such thing, because there is no literal heavenly temple.

Paul makes the point about the Temple of the Holy Spirit in three different passages in Corinthians.

“Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit lives in you? If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy him; for God’s temple is sacred, and you are that temple.
--1 Corinthians 3:16-17 NIV

“Do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God?”
--1 Corinthians 6:19 NIV

“What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God.”
2 Corinthians 6:16 NIV


In Ephesians, Paul makes a related point but puts a different spin on it, painting a picture of a symbolic temple. Paul uses this symbolic temple to unite Jew and Gentile, instead of using it to continue Old Testament ritual and Old Testament ideas. Here Christ is the “chief cornerstone” of “God’s household” which “rises to become a holy temple.” Yet Christ does not serve in this temple as a priest or as a sacrifice--instead, He is a part of the building!

“Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God’s people and members of God’s household, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.”
--Ephesians 2:19-22 NIV



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Read Hebrews please. particularly 7-10 and see if you have the same view.

MoreCoffee said:

Exactly how does resting on Sunday defy "God's law"?

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As I have said God requires the 7th day if we decide that we will give Him the first then we usurp God authority.
Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak [great] words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Time- zĕman (Aramaic)a set time, time, season. The Sabbath a set time by God, A time- day. A season of worship and rest.
Law-
1) decree, law
a) a decree (of the king)
b) law
c) law (of God) The Sabbath law. The only one of the ten that we deny.
The Sabbath is the only command in which we can find time and law combine, and it would appear that that is what is referred to in this text. There will be an attempt to remove God's holy Sabbath.