Ellen White on the Sabbath

bugkiller said:

It is very interesting to note the only day mentioned about Jesus meeting with anyone after the resurrection was the first day of the week.

bugkiller

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How does that make it the Lord's day? Harden not your heart.

Originally Posted by Elder 111

bugkiller said:

Whoppie!!! big deal.

bugkiller

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It is.

Originally Posted by TruthWave7

This one plain text Matthew 12:8; explodes Matthew Henry's Commentary:

If the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath, then its the "Lord's Day". There is no text that says Jesus is Lord of Sunday, or the Lord of the 1st day.


New International Version (©1984)

"For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."

New Living Translation (©2007)

"For the Son of Man is Lord, even over the Sabbath!"

English Standard Version (©2001)

"For the Son of Man is lord of the Sabbath.”

New American Standard Bible (©1995)

"For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."
​

bugkiller said:

Who cares?

bugkiller

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God cares

MoreCoffee said:

But "the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath" does not say anything about "the Lord's day" so you are engaging in imaginative interpretation. Mind you, the Lord owns every day so if you think that being Lord of a day defines the day as the Lord's say then every day would be the Lord's day - which is, of course, an absurdity. Thus your reasoning fails to identify the day but makes the very concept meaningless (if every day is indeed the Lord's day because the Lord owns it then "the Lord's day" means nothing distinct at all).

For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day. (Matthew 12:8)
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So back to the theme of the thread, The 7th day sabbath is not obligatory for non-Israelites, never was and never will be.

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I hope you know that your point also mean that yo have no basic for calling Sunday the Lord's day. You are in fact in a worst position than those who say that it is Sabbath.

MoreCoffee said:

It looks more like an indication that among the many things (days) of which the Son of man is Lord the sabbath is among them. No special importance is being attached to the sabbath by Jesus; it was his enemies that attached so much importance to keeping the sabbath that they were willing to kill Jesus for not doing as they desired. Ellen White makes that point in the the chapter this thread is about. So, although I see why you want to interpret the word "even" as signifying something special and important about the sabbath the truth is that it signifies no such thing.

I do not say that Sunday is the sabbath; I've repeatedly said that the sabbath is the 7th day and Sunday is the Lord's day. I've repeatedly reminded you that the 7th day was given to Israel as their sabbath and that Christians receive their rest in Christ - a rest from works of all kinds including works of the law - and that the Lord's day is the day upon which Christians meet, following apostolic example. You mistake what is being taught by the Church when you think that Sunday is anything except what the Church says it is; the Lord's day upon which Christians worship according to the scriptures.

Jesus didn't ask anybody to keep passover, do you keep it? What he did say was to "do this in remembrance of me as often as you do it". We celebrate the Lord's supper every time we gather to worship, with one exception, Good Friday, that day we receive communion but do not say the Eucharistic prayer nor consecrate the bread and wine.

That'd be because he was speaking of Jerusalem and because the Jews in Jerusalem kept the 7th day.

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If the Sabbath would not be important, Why would Jesus care if the Jews had to flee on the Sabbath or not?

MoreCoffee said:

Elder 111, The sabbath is a shadow of what is old and passed away. That's the whole story.
All the verbiage you and the various SDA folk write is just huffing and puffing.

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1 Corinthians 4:6 And these things, brethren, I did transfer to myself and to Apollos because of you,
that in us ye may learn not to think above that which hath been written, that ye may not be puffed up one for one against the other

Elder 111 said:

How does that make it the Lord's day? Harden not your heart.

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Makes what the Lord's Day? the sabbath or Sunday? I think you avoided the point. Why does the Scripture only identify the first day of the week when mentioning Jesus after the resurrection? Why did Jesus not meet with his disciples on the sabbath after the resurrection?

bugkiller

Elder 111 said:

Originally Posted by Elder 111

10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
Does not these come from the ten commandments and therefore states that James is speaking specifically of the ten commandments?
The Sabbath is also part of it. Therefore James also means that if we violate the Sabbath we break the whole ten
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It is.

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James is not advocating obedience to the law in Chapter 2. Sorry The law of liberty is not the law of bondage and death.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. Rom 8

This verse is comapring the law (OC) to the NC. The law is also called the ministration of death in II Cor 3:7.

bugkiller

MoreCoffee said:

Elder 111, The sabbath is a shadow in what is old and passed away. That's the whole story. All the verbiage you and the various SDA folk write is just huffing and puffing.

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Yep the Son has come out and casts no shadows. Glory!!!!!!

bugkiller

Elder 111 said:

If the Sabbath would not be important, Why would Jesus care if the Jews had to flee on the Sabbath or not?

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Love!!!!

And the point is as you mentioned the Jews fleeing on the sabbath. Not Christians.

bugkiller

Elder 111 said:

Originally Posted by TruthWave7

This one plain text Matthew 12:8; explodes Matthew Henry's Commentary:
​

If the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath, then its the "Lord's Day". There is no text that says Jesus is Lord of Sunday, or the Lord of the 1st day.


New International Version (©1984)

"For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."

New Living Translation (©2007)

"For the Son of Man is Lord, even over the Sabbath!"

English Standard Version (©2001)

"For the Son of Man is lord of the Sabbath.”

New American Standard Bible (©1995)

"For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."
​

God cares

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OK lets say it this way - Why should I care and why do you care? They may be both the same answer depending on one's POV.

bugkiller

Originally Posted by Elder 111

If the Sabbath would not be important, Why would Jesus care if the Jews had to flee on the Sabbath or not?

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bugkiller said:

Love!!!!

And the point is as you mentioned the Jews fleeing on the sabbath. Not Christians.

bugkiller

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There were some Jewish Christians living in Jerusalem during the destruction of that City me thinks

Matt 20:19 "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
20 "And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath.
21 "For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover.........
The city was at this time crowded with Jewish strangers, and foreigners from all parts, so that the whole nation may be considered as having been shut up in one prison, preparatory to the execution of the Divine vengeance............

......Meanwhile the horrors of famine grew still more melancholy and afflictive.
The Jews, for of food were at length compelled to eat their belts, their sandals, the skins of their shields, dried grass, and even the ordure of oxen.
In the depth or this horrible extremity, a Jewess of noble family urged by the intolerable cravings of hunger, slew her infant child, and prepared it for a meal

MoreCoffee said:

The bold text is what Ellen White quotes, but she leaves the impression that it is a statement rather than part of a question and she implies that it is related to the 7th day rest (sabbath) when it is not. It's a little bit misleading; a little bit of error.

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I don't get your problems. I'll give you my reading:

--The Sabbath was hallowed at the creation. As ordained for man, it had its origin when "the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy." Job 38:7. Peace brooded over the world; for earth was in harmony with heaven. "God saw everything that He had made, and, behold, it was very good;" and He rested in the joy of His completed work. Gen. 1:31.--

She begins by talking about Sabbath being associated with creation. We see this in Genesis 1, where YHWH's acts of creation are completed with Sabbath.

Then she says Sabbath was “ordained for man,” by which I take it she means that Sabbath was not given to angels or not obligatory upon YHWH. Okay, I can follow that pretty easily. Sure, when Sabbath was given to Israel in the desert, it wasn't given to angels or to YHWH.

Then she restates what she said at the beginning, that Sabbath has to do with creation. So now she's going to show a few things that have to do with creation. The Job passage is talking about creation: when YHWH founded the earth. I don't see anything disingenuous there. She uses the Job passage because it is a reference to creation. What's the problem?

She finishes by talking about harmony and peace and everything being good when God rested at the completion of his creative activity. I really don't find anything wrong or even slightly off-base in any of that.

-- Because He had rested upon the Sabbath, "God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it,"--set it apart to a holy use. --

All sounds perfectly tame and normal to me.

-- He gave it to Adam as a day of rest. It was a memorial of the work of creation, and thus a sign of God's power and His love. --

This, however, is where I go “wait a minute... say what?” I don't see anything in the Adam and Eve story concerning Sabbath. And the fact that she doesn't quote anything in the Adam and Eve story illustrates the fact that she isn't getting it from the Adam and Eve story (otherwise, why not quote it like she does everywhere else?).

At this point, I would have to wonder why she is taking something that only applies to YHWH according to Gen 1 and applying it to humans. It was God who had been creating and had stopped and done nothing because of it. Adam and Eve weren't creating the universe for six days and then had to stop on the seventh. There is a disjoint in her argument—she is taking something that is only speaking about God's activity and then lack of it and trying to connect it with humanity's activity and lack of it. But humanity wasn't involved in creation, so whatever God is doing (or in this case not doing) in Gen 1 is not related to humanity's activity.

MoreCoffee said:

The bold portions are the parts of verses that Ellen White quotes in her book's chapter, second paragraph. She is correct in associating genesis 2:3 with the 7th day rest (sabbath) however the connection to the 7th day rest is not present in psalm 111:4 or in Romans 1:20.”

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I don't read it that way at all. Here is my reading:

-- The Scripture says, "He hath made His wonderful works to be remembered." "The things that are made," declare "the invisible things of Him since the creation of the world," "even His everlasting power and divinity." --

Here, she is saying that we are to remember YHWH's creative acts and that his creative acts reveal who and what God is. Nothing out of place there. It is not until here that I have a major issue:

-- And since the Sabbath is a memorial of the work of creation --

Where does it say that Sabbath functions as a memorial or a remembrance of creation? That's a very significant thing to say without showing where in scripture this idea comes from. Again, the fact that she doesn't show where it comes from in scripture is illustrative of the fact that it doesn't come from anywhere in scripture (otherwise, she would have quoted it like she does with everything else).

So far, then, we have three things EGW has stated in her discussion that need to be backed up with examples from scripture in order to validate her point:
1. God's Sabbath in Gen 1 involved humans
2. the Sabbath given to humans is about remembrance
3. Adam and Eve were commanded to observe Sabbath

Lysimachus said:

The Original Greek in Mark 2:27 , is mankind MoreCoffee.

You are in error:

#190: The Sabbath is Jewish. Even if this were true, which it isn't, what would it prove? Our Savior is Jewish, and 64 of the 66 books of the Bible are too. If we must reject the Sabbath for such a reason, how can we remain Christians?

If the Sabbath is Jewish, why did Jesus say, "The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath" (Mark 2:27)? He didn't say that the Sabbath was made just for Jews. He said it was made for man.

Of Jesus it is said, "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made" (John 1:3). Since He's the one who made the Sabbath for man, He ought to know what He's talking about.

Interestingly, the name Adam is also one of the Hebrew words for "man." Thus Jesus in Mark 2:27 is referring to the making of both the Sabbath and Adam in Genesis 2.

More than this, the Greek of Mark 2:27 says that the Sabbath was made for "the man", not "the man" for the Sabbath. Why did Jesus say "the man" instead of just "man"?

In the first eleven chapters of Genesis, the Hebrew word adam occurs 52 times, always in the singular, and is translated "Adam," "man," and "men." In 43 of these 52 times, adam occurs with the definite article "the." In 7 of the remaining 9, from Genesis 4:25 to 5:5, adam is used as a proper noun, and so the definite article is omitted. Only in 1:26 and 2:5 does the word adam appear neither as a proper noun nor with the definite article.

First the Hebrew phrase "the man" means either Adam or both Adam and Eve. Then, beginning with Genesis 6:1-7, the phrase begins to mean not just Adam but his descendants as well, or in other words, all mankind. Therefore, when Jesus said that He made the Sabbath for "the man," He meant that He made it for Adam and all his descendants, since that is precisely what "the man" means. How then can anyone declare the Sabbath to be merely "Jewish"?

Paul uses similar language when talking about the woman: "Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man" (1 Cor. 11:9). If the Sabbath that was made for the man is really Jewish, then the woman that was made for the man is really Jewish as well. Essentially, that would mean that marriage is only for the Jew, not for the Gentile.

Adam took but two things out of the garden with him: the Sabbath and marriage. Both are under attack today. Even though the Lord blesses and sanctifies but one woman per man on wedding day, there are those who declare it doesn't matter what woman you keep. And though Jesus blessed and sanctified but one day for us, there are those who will say that you can keep any day you want.
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Interesting agrument. Still no sale!

bugkiller

Originally Posted by Lysimachus

The Original Greek in Mark 2:27 , is mankind MoreCoffee.

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That would make sense, as just plain ole "man" would leave out the woman

Mark 2:27 And He said to them, "the sabbath for the man/anqrwpon <444> was made, not the man/anqrwpoV <444> for the sabbath

Textus Rec.) Mark 2:27 kai elegen autoiV "to sabbaton dia ton anqrwpon egeneto ouc o anqrwpoV dia to sabbaton"

444. anthropos from 435 and ops (the countenance; from 3700); man-faced, i.e. a human being:--certain, man.

Why is it that people think that when God speaks, He speaks only to the Jews?---He created us all---He speaks to all. The 7th day was hallowed and sanctified by Him--for what? So he could keep it??--It was not made for the angels or for God, but by God for mankind--Yet you are saying that God does not indicate that Adam and Eve were to keep it--are they not mankind??---What other mankind did God make??---We are supposed to read the bible "here a little, there a little, precept upon precept"--put it together to get the whole picture. To say Adam and Eve or their decendants were not mankind and therefore did not need to keep the sabbath is ludicous--but God did not make it for Himself, yes He stopped creating but the sabbath was made for mankind, not for Him.
When given again as part of the 10 commandments He said remember--after 400 years in Egypt, they may have lost some of it, but they were still keeping the sabbath before the commandments were written, as when the manna was not given on the sabbath, that was before the commandments were given, so it was in place allready--mankind does not mean Jews, it means mankind--everybody, men, women, children.
The Jews were supposed to give all that God said to others, in the wilderness, when the 10 commandments were given, there were Egyptians and others, the mixed multitute--not just Jews. Anyone who chose to believe in God and come out of paganism became a part of the children of Israel. This was to be for everybody. It was the Jews that became exclusive instead of inclusive and stated thinking they were the chosen and therefore better than everybody else, but they were wrong, mankind meant all--it was and is meant for all.
Christ died for all, not just for the Jews, Christ is Jewish--but salvation is for mankind. Salvation if of the Jews, Christ said--did that mean only Jews were to be saved?--No.
Enoch and Elijah walked with God and never experienced death. One preflood and one post flood--they did not have to be the only ones--Enoch was not a Jew--they did not exist yet. Elijah was--both translated. God speaks to everyone, we are all His children.

MoreCoffee said:

Elder 111, The sabbath is a shadow in what is old and passed away. That's the whole story. All the verbiage you and the various SDA folk write is just huffing and puffing.

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Not at all. The Sabbath is inbedded in the ten commandments it that goes all goes so says James 2. Since when did the bible teach that the Lord's day done away with?