I point you back to the context.
I agree with your red highlighted comment. The discourse is directed to the Jew alone and not the whole world or all mankind as contended by the SDA and MJs.
bugkiller
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I point you back to the context.The Greek says, "καὶ ἔλεγεν αὐτοῖς· τὸ σάββατον διὰ τὸν ἄνθρωπον ἐγένετο, οὐχ ὁ ἄνθρωπος διὰ τὸ σάββατον·", and ἄνθρωπον means man, not mankind. In fact it is a singular, not even plural. Thus "and he was saying to them, 'the sabbath through the man came to be, not the man through the sabbath'". Even in a very literal translation, such as the one I just gave, it is clear that the verse points to the giving of rest for [a] man's sake rather than the giving of [a] man for the sabbath's sake. Our SDA interlocutors ought to know this.
Yes, that much is very obvious and it is one of the sad effects of sabbatarianism that people will wrest verses and passages to make them fit their doctrine rather than fitting their doctrine to the passage.I point you back to the context.
I agree with your red highlighted comment. The discourse is directed to the Jew alone and not the whole world or all mankind as contended by the SDA and MJs.
bugkiller
One of the famous historical commentaries on the Bible, among Protestants, is Matthew Henry's Commentary. This is what he has to say about the day of the week in Revelation 1:10.Quote
The day and time in which he had this vision: it was the Lord’s day, the day which Christ had separated and set apart for himself, as the eucharist is called the Lord’s supper. Surely this can be no other than the Christian sabbath, the first day of the week, to be observed in remembrance of the resurrection of Christ. Let us who call him our Lord honour him on his own day, the day which the Lord hath made and in which we ought to rejoice. 4. The frame that his soul was in at this time: He was in the Spirit.
End Quote
When you and Albert Barnes finish, God did not in any way even hint of Sunday being a religious day of any sort. There is absolutely no tie to Sunday as the Lord's day, NONE.I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and senditunto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.(Revelation 1:10-11)
On the Lords day - The word rendered here as "Lords" (κυριακῇ kuriakē), occurs only in this place and in 1Cor 11:20, where it is applied to the Lords supper. It properly means "pertaining to the Lord"; and, so far as this word is concerned, it might mean a day "pertaining to the Lord," in any sense, or for any reason; either because he claimed it as his own, and had set it apart for his own service, or because it was designed to commemorate some important event pertaining to him, or because it was observed in honor of him. It is clear:(1) That this refers to some day which was distinguished from all other days of the week, and which would be sufficiently designated by the use of this term.The term was used generally by the early Christians to denote the first day of the week. It occurs twice in the Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians (about 101 a.d.), who calls the Lords day "the queen and prince of all days." Chrysostom (on Ps. 119) says, "It was called the Lords day because the Lord rose from the dead on that day." Later fathers make a marked distinction between the "Sabbath" and the "Lords day"; meaning by the former the Jewish "Sabbath," or the seventh day of the week, and by the latter the first day of the week, kept holy by Christians. So Theodoret (Fab. Haeret. ii. 1), speaking of the Ebionites, says, "They keep the Sabbath according to the Jewish law, and sanctify the Lords day in like manner as we do" (Prof. Stuart). The strong probability is, that the name was given to this day in honor of the Lord Jesus, and because he rose on that day from the dead. No one can doubt that it was an appellation given to the first day of the week; and the passage, therefore, proves:
(2) that it was a day which was for some reason regarded as especially a day of the Lord, or especially devoted to him.
(3) it would further appear that this was a day particularly devoted to the Lord Jesus; for:(a) that is the natural meaning of the word "Lord" as used in the New Testament (compare the notes on Acts 1:24); and
(b) if the Jewish Sabbath were intended to be designated, the word "Sabbath" would have been used.
(1) that that day was thus early distinguished in some special manner, so that the mere mention of it would be sufficient to identify it in the minds of those to whom the apostle wrote;(Albert Barnes)
(2) that it was in some sense regarded as devoted to the Lord Jesus, or was designed in some way to commemorate what he had done; and,
(3) that if this book were written by the apostle John, the observance of that day has the apostolic sanction. He had manifestly, in accordance with a prevailing custom, set apart this day in honor of the Lord Jesus. Though alone, he was engaged on that day in acts of devotion. Though far away from the sanctuary, he enjoyed what all Christians hope to enjoy on such a day of rest, and what not a few do in fact enjoy in its observance. We may remark, in view of this statement:(a) that when away from the sanctuary, and deprived of its privileges, we should nevertheless not fail to observe the Christian Sabbath. If on a bed of sickness, if in a land of strangers, if on the deep, if in a foreign clime, if on a lonely island, as John was, where we have none of the advantages of public worship, we should yet honor the Sabbath. We should worship God alone, if we have none to unite with us; we should show to those around us, if we are with strangers, by our dress and our conversation, by a serious and devent manner, by abstinence from labor, and by a resting from travel, that we devoutly regard this day as set apart for God.
(b) We may expect, in such circumstances, and with such a devout observance of the day, that God will meet with us and bless us. It was on a lonely island, far away from the sanctuary and from the society of Christian friends, that the Saviour met "the beloved disciple," and we may trust it will be so with us. For on such a desert island, in a lonely forest, on the deep, or amid strangers in a foreign land, he can as easily meet us as in the sanctuary where we have been accustomed to worship, and when surrounded by all the privileges of a Christian land. No man, at home or abroad, among friends or strangers, enjoying the privileges of the sanctuary, or deprived of those privileges, ever kept the Christian Sabbath in a devout manner without profit to his own soul; and, when deprived of the privileges of public worship, the visitations of the Saviour to the soul may be more than a compensation for all our privations. Who would not be willing to be banished to a lonely island like Patmos, if he might enjoy such a glorious vision of the Redeemer as John was favored with there?
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.James 2:10
For whosoever shall keep the whole law - All except the single point referred to. The apostle does not say that this in fact ever did occur, but he says that if it should, and yet a man should have failed in only one particular, he must be judged to be guilty. The case supposed seems to be that of one who claimed that he had kept the whole law. The apostle says that even if this should be admitted for the time to be true in all other respects, yet, if he had failed in any one particular - in showing respect to persons, or in anything else - he could not but be held to be a transgressor, The design of this is to show the importance of yielding universal obedience, and to impress upon the mind a sense of the enormity of sin from the fact that the violation of any one precept is in fact an offence against the whole law of God. The whole law here means all the law of God; all that he has required; all that he has given to regulate us in our lives. (Albert Barnes)
When did Christ ask us to remember His resurrection in such a way? He gave us the wine for His spill blood and the bread for His broken body. Did you read in His word something else that I missed?One of the famous historical commentaries on the Bible, among Protestants, is Matthew Henry's Commentary. This is what he has to say about the day of the week in Revelation 1:10.
Quote
The day and time in which he had this vision: it was the Lords day, the day which Christ had separated and set apart for himself, as the eucharist is called the Lords supper. Surely this can be no other than the Christian sabbath, the first day of the week, to be observed in remembrance of the resurrection of Christ. Let us who call him our Lord honour him on his own day, the day which the Lord hath made and in which we ought to rejoice. 4. The frame that his soul was in at this time: He was in the Spirit.
End Quote
CommentariesMatthew Henry Commentary on the Whole Bible (Complete)RevelationRevelation 1
Link
Revelation 1 - Matthew Henry Complete Commentary on the Whole Bible
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What is bad about that? Is this not the same Moses that had and lived by faith? Heb. 11Well, no. That is not our duty. It is not our goal. A Christian's calling is to follow Jesus in faith, fidelity, loyalty, goodness, mercy, trust, and love ... probably some other adjectives are also applicable. But we're not called to follow Moses, not to walk in legal obedience, not to serve under the law. That is the ministry of death.
So mankind means Israelites? Ignorant me.Actually it does say mankind in the orginal Greek text. But to use it in the way the SDA use it is twisting it for their purposes. The context is very important here. If the verse is divorced form the context and only considered as a stand alone sentence having no reference or inference Jesus contradicts Moses. This poses a problem at least for me. I have to ask who is telling the truth. Is it Moses or Jesus? If it is not both, which one is lying? What does this do to the Scripture?
Moses said -
3 The Lord made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day. Deut 5
Then Moses proceeds with the 10 Cs identified as the covenant. This includes the sabbath. No other nation or group is included in the covenant. The SDA use this to prove no Gentile can be saved without becoming a Jew to require the submission to that covenant. This means the NC is denied and so is salvation according to Gal 5:4.
13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the Lord that doth sanctify you. Ex 31
Who did God tell Moses to speak to? Why is it insisted that you is the whole world?
Psalms says -
19 He sheweth his word unto Jacob, his statutes and his judgments unto Israel.
20 He hath not dealt so with any nation: and as for his judgments, they have not known them. Praise ye the Lord.
Who was Jesus speaking to in MK 2:27-28? The whole world? Hardly. The SDA people claim that Jesus was also speaking to Gentiles because they were in the group. This is assumed. Jesus is not responding to a question from Gentiles nor having a conversation with them. Jesus is responding to Jews that asked Him a question. And it is in this context that Jesus replies and agrees with Moses and the Book of the Law given at the direction of our Father.
If this is not so then it needs to be explained how the sabbath can be a special sign to anyone since all mankind is obligated to it as the SDA claim.
I think all it takes is for one to read the Scripture to see how thin and false the presentation that the sabbath is for all mankind really is. But some are carried away because they first will not read the Bible and secondly get carried away with the emotion and passion of the moment. As noted even professional clergy get off base because they fail to see and understand what is really going on and perpetuate a religious system for the fool.
bugkiller
Who cares?This one plain text Matthew 12:8; explodes Matthew Henry's Commentary:
If the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath, then its the "Lord's Day". There is no text that says Jesus is Lord of Sunday, or the Lord of the 1st day.
New International Version (©1984)
"For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."
New Living Translation (©2007)
"For the Son of Man is Lord, even over the Sabbath!"
English Standard Version (©2001)
"For the Son of Man is lord of the Sabbath.
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."
It is very interesting to note the only day mentioned about Jesus meeting with anyone after the resurrection was the first day of the week.When you and Albert Barnes finish, God did not in any way even hint of Sunday being a religious day of any sort. There is absolutely no tie to Sunday as the Lord's day, NONE.
Is Friday the devil's day because Jesus died on that day? Or victory day because He purged our sins on that day? The only think Jesus instituted in connection with the whole event was the bred and wine, the last supper. NOTHING ELSE!
Whoppie!!! big deal.10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
Does not these come from the ten commandments and therefore states that James is speaking specifically of the ten commandments?
The Sabbath is also part of it. Therefore James also means that if we violate the Sabbath we break the whole ten.
Of course not. It is YOU who are preaching the Law that REQUIRES executing sinners.
I'll stick with the NT wherein is salvation.
Col 2:16 could not be true if we are still under the Law of Moses. We must choose. NT or the Law of Moses.
Who said that???
The commandments are to YOU and whoever chooses to be under the Law. Not to me.
Are you under the Law or not? If you are then YOU are REQUIRED to execute sinners.
Who said anything about disrespecting the old testament. Jesus fulfilled it, what more need be said. The one who fulfils the law and thus brings its covenant to an end not only respects but does the law so that those who are united to him in baptism and the Spirit need not serve the law any more. So we know and we say that the law is just and holy and good and spiritual and fulfilled. We do not try to establish our own righteousness by doing works of the law, we receive our righteousness by grace through faith, and our righteousness is Christ himself.@MoreCoffee: Did you ever stop and think that all the Scriptures that Jesus quoted in the NT were taken from the OT?! This proves his respect for all Scripture, OT and NT.
This one plain text Matthew 12:8; explodes Matthew Henry's Commentary:
If the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath, then its the "Lord's Day". There is no text that says Jesus is Lord of Sunday, or the Lord of the 1st day.
New International Version (©1984)
"For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."
New Living Translation (©2007)
"For the Son of Man is Lord, even over the Sabbath!"
English Standard Version (©2001)
"For the Son of Man is lord of the Sabbath.”
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."
You write as if the only source for definitions is your imagination about what the bible says. Most words in the new testament are defined by their common usage among Greek speaking people of the first century AD. Nobody thinks that they need the bible to define the word "and" or "day" or "woman" etc. These are common words with a common meaning and the "lord's day" is also a phrase made up of common words that the early christians defined as the first day of the week, Sunday. That is all we need to know to define the phrase.
"I was in the Spirit", says "John, "On the Lord's day (Sunday)".
bug and coffee---you may ignore what the word of God says as our imagination--nevertheless, it is the word of God, and if Bug doesn't care, then why bother to post--is this thread only for Bug and Coffee?? Point is, it is only your imagination and that of some early Catholics, that ever brought up Sunday as the Lords day--bottom line is according to scripture it is, always has been and always will be, the 7th day.---This is a see-saw---you say what some early sunday keepers say, we say what the bible says and then you all say----who cares--or at least bug says that.----OI vay!!!( That's probably spelled wrong)
But "the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath" does not say anything about "the Lord's day" so you are engaging in imaginative interpretation. Mind you, the Lord owns every day so if you think that being Lord of a day defines the day as the Lord's say then every day would be the Lord's day - which is, of course, an absurdity. Thus your reasoning fails to identify the day but makes the very concept meaningless (if every day is indeed the Lord's day because the Lord owns it then "the Lord's day" means nothing distinct at all).For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day. (Matthew 12:8)So back to the theme of the thread, The 7th day sabbath is not obligatory for non-Israelites, never was and never will be.
For the Son of man is Lord EVEN of the sabbath day---That seems to indicate that the sabbath day was of importance.
And Jesus never said, there will come a day, upon my resurrection that the sabbath day will be Sunday, but only for the Gentiles.
He certainly had plenty of opportunity to say something about Sunday, he was making all sorts of predictions, like signs of the end, His death and resurrection, keeping the Passover Feast as a remembrance of Him
, not one stone left upon another in reference to the temple, and also to pray that their flight not be on the sabbath (meaning that He expected the 7th day sabbath to be kept after His resurrection, why else would He say to pray that you don't flee on the sabbath?)
,that Peter would deny Him 3 X's--many other predictions, not once about Sunday as a remembrance of His resurrection, only the Passover Feast as a remembrance of Him.
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