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Election and 2 Timothy 1:9

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Received

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"God has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity..." -- 2 Timothy 1:9 (NASB)

I've always had a keen wonder concerning this sort of remark; not concerning the latter half of the statement, but the former. "His purpose": must it really be that difficult to comprehend? It seems plainly obvious that those who quote such a passage seem to imply that there is no reference to value or ability to respond on our part before an omnipotent God, and because of such depravity the question of our ultimate good is of trivial importance, and the matter transcends precisely to a God who makes our ability to perceive goodness possible and His ultimate intentions. A God who is love (1 John 4:8) must have something else in mind. In our own theological conceptions we assume something murky and conspiratorial is at work regarding the divine purpose regarding this specific passage: something deeper than the essence of God's being, and therefore, I would warrant, something not of God at all. A deity of maximal excellence does not need to carry out any task, foreign or no; if this were so, it would be impossible for such an entity to be God. Perfection, as it relates to the divine, is precisely the state of self-sufficiency. Our God is sufficient in Himself. Only through self-subjected creation -- an act of pure and paramount aesthetic expression, in my opinion -- did He bestow His capacity to relate with something less than eternal. It would seem obvious that as far as intentions go, they would carry out only as far as this imperfect creation, and how far His perfection can act as a luminary to our impoverished reality; and such would also transcend to His ultimate purpose: that which we are not called according to works. With all this in mind, not from an arrogant or ostentatious stance, I claim that God's purpose is candid and inexorable: love. Indeed, one whose purpose is love, and love alone, cannot possibly choose us according to our works; this is to miss the entire point of charity: edification, with intrinsic respect for the subject in question. As Frost would say, love is blind, and should be left so. I am simply advocating that God's essence foreshadows any possible intention that He would imagine; and I believe that Paul's reference to His election not based on us or our spiritual character is not a way of negating our intrinsic value (we are, regardless of our depravity, made in the image of God [Gen. 9:6; Jas. 3:9]) and our relation to this divine plan, but of revealing that pure, agape love has no cares for standings of spiritual character, and therefore God's ultimate purpose is indeed His purpose in relation to mankind, for such is the expression of His glory. Honestly, how can it be otherwise? His plan must not be something that is done for the hopes of a progression of His own character; as stated before, such is impossible with perfection. His purpose must be something done out of the purest of self-sufficient love, and therefore, given that love is precisely relational, how He may embellish mankind with this unconditional gift.

Perchance from this understanding we can weigh our perceptions of the divine, from the wondrous and heartwarming conceptions seen in the gospels through the quintessential man Jesus Christ, to the seeming insufficient and unloving God of the Old Testament. Where subjectivity ends, reality continues. And it is through faith that we hold value in those things that are true regardless of our ability to at least partially comprehend them. This is indeed why I believe that God loves every man, for I realize that every degree closer I come to His perfection, the more compassion I have for my fellow man, regardless of his moral standing. Shall we therefore out-mercify God? It seems not, for in the act of creating man He loves them into existence. Anything less than this would be to contradict His essense (1 John 4:8), and therefore be an injustice of superlative degree against the very one our capacity for justice weighs.

God's election, therefore, is simply His calling and providential response to those who have the capacity to receive that which He freely bestows. It is not according to works, lest any man should boast. How foolish it is to believe that it could possibly be according to such a system, for in this very method of drawing love itself is left out! Indeed, a man who boasts in love is boasting not in love but in something imperfect; and to draw according to works with a purpose of love is to contradict the very purpose you hold, for the purest love has no conditions in relation to the subject at hand. And so it goes. A God of love cannot help but draw unconditionally, but this lack of conditions on our part does not negate the universal love He has for mankind, for God is love. It turns then, perhaps ironically, that God's admittance to election does not negate the possibility of His omni-benevolence; it fulfills it. God, who loves all, soteriologically loves those who will have a standing in His world; and such is only possible through anything less than arrant denial.

How does this tie in with the ontological present? In the very same sense an act of love does to a man in need: there are no conditions by which we weigh this man 'worthy' of our sympathy -- to claim such is to contradict love. He is perfectly free to respond to our call, or deny us. Yet the man of the highest compassion will not allow a man of feeble doubt to withstand his desire to express that which has fueled him to even be able to express such a moment of affection; nothing is inexorable but love. The only man who is irredeemable is the one who is of such a contaminated and obstinate nature to repel that which is good: the one who loves the very opposite of that which gives this man of aid reason for living. Such men are, if you will, incapable of election.

"For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God." -- John 3:20,21 (NASB)

Of course, this verse, while giving aid to previous allegory, also maintains a definite problem for those who would maintain God's definite calling, but deny His essential nature as love. The second verse states that those who practice the truth come to the light; they are not already in it. The only escape seems to be to claim that those who God loved prior to their existence unconsciously, and involuntarily, practiced a truth only given to them. But this is to contradict God's essential nature (1 John 4:8), as well as raise ambiguous interpretations of verses that indicate the possibility of man's repentance in the face of God's potential wrath (cf. Romans 2:5): how can one merit blame for something one cannot do without the assistance of that which makes it possible -- such being only that which God has bestowed upon the elect, according to the group of theologians who maintiain God's limited benevolence? Blame would become futile, and therefore unjust. The only plausible interpretation seems to be that man has the capacity to be drawn by the intrinisic beauty of God -- that is to say, he has the capacity of response. While no man seeks God in his own power, God, being love, seeks him, and through the contingency of response comes the contingency of salvation.

With all this stated, I believe I have stated my case well enough. My underlying and fundamental point is that grace, while undeserved, is also the gift of a God of love who could not but express the depth of His love through the incarnation and death of His son, made in His likeness. Thoughts?
 

Received

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I am saying that God's election does not cancel out our freedom. God, who is love, and loves unconditionally, elects unconditionally, the end result being open response by anyone who would dare respond. This thought process is similar to that of the classic Arminian view of predestination, and how God foreknows our actions and predestines accordingly. I am taking it a step further and advocating that God predestines us according to our capacity to respond; therefore, we are free from the claim of works-based salvation, for God is not choosing according to our spiritual standing, but according to His love, which is unconditional and therefore universal, and therefore weighing on our capacity to respond, for love is not self-seeking (1 Cor. 13:5). If God chooses men without conditions on their part, how is He choosing them? According to His purpose, the Calvinist would respond. But what is His purpose? Given that He is sufficient in Himself, and therefore incapable of conspiring any foreign plans, the purpose must be precisely according to His essence, love, and therefore, given love's relatedness, according to our edification and the glory imparted upon Him by us. In short, those who are capable of being loved are loved. What we must not do, however, is weigh this information in line with our empirical observations. This may entail a God who saves post-mortem. All this is contingent on the biblical claim that God is love, as John tells us (1 Jn. 4:8).
 
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Drotar

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"But what is His purpose?"

Prying into and trying to figure out the wonders, majesties, and purposes and Plan of God is something you do without my involvement.

Trying to figure out and reason the plan of God is thin ice that I leave you to walk alone hereafter. That is not just impossible, but downright dangerous.

I believe in human freedom. I believe that men have the capability to do whatever they desire and want to do. TTYL Jesu sloves you!
 
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Excuse me Drotar, but if the Bible doesn't reveal to us God's plan, then how else would we would know anything about it or Him?

Matthew 13:11- "He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given."

I Corinthians 4:1- "Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and STEWARDS OF THE MYSTERIES OF GOD."

I Timothy 2:4- "Who will have all men to be saved, and COME TO THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH."

ANd many more....

Regardless of whether or not you apply the passages to all, or to the elect only,....Paul said "I would NOT have you ignorant, brethren...." Calvinism hides behind the Sovreignty of God. I do not wish to diminish that, in fact I glorify it. BUT, that is not an excuse with which to say that God chose some elect, and not others, when there is no basic difference b/w them.....i.e. as we both agree ALL are depraved. You hide behind a false curtain that says "since It doesn't make logical sense, therefore I can't understand it, therefore it must be true" On the contrary, The Bible makes perfect sense. There is nothing logical about limited atonement.

Mathew 22:14- "For may are called, but few are chosen."

According to the Calvinist, this is not possible. But the Bible says it is!! Praise God!! You can be called, but not chosen. And the Bible takes it a step further; it explains throughout the reasons why God will not choose you. If you apply the Calvinistic view of Sovreignty, God would not call someone that He wasn't going to choose.

II Corinthians 5:14- "For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that IF ONE DIED FOR ALL, THEN WERE ALL DEAD."

I have heard discussion that the Calvinist brings concerning the idea of the word 'all'. Nevertheless, the scripture clearly states that ALL WERE DEAD. Lets look at this verse alone. If you agree that ALL WERE DEAD, this means both elect and non-elect. (Total depravity) The same "all" in the same verse, in the same sentence no less, means the same group of people called "all." ALL WERE DEAD, therefore ALL need a sacrifice, therefore ONE DIED FOR ALL. This DOES NOT mean that all will accept that sacrifice. Did not the priests sacrifice for ALL Israel, and ALL their sins were atoned for. Yet there were those covenanted Israellites who died for breaking the law. They were not worthy of the sacrifices. They did not circumcise their hearts, Dueteronomy 10:16.
 
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Reformationist

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Received said:
I am saying that God's election does not cancel out our freedom.

That's absolutely true. His election, and subsequent regeneration, MAKES us free. Prior to that we are NOT free. We are slaves to our fallen nature.

God bless
 
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Received said:
God, who is love, and loves unconditionally, elects unconditionally, the end result being open response by anyone who would dare respond.

God does elect unconditionally. That is, His election unto salvation is not based on works past, present or future. It is based on His divine purpose which is fulfilled through the election, regeneration, sanctification and glorification of His chosen. An election that is nothing more than an "open response by anyone who would dare to respond" is a nonsensical statement for numerous reasons. First, because it fails to take into account man's natural, inherent desire to flee from God in rebellion. Secondly, it presupposes that "a response" to the elective call of God is only "a response" if it's a positive response. Everyone responds to the outward call of God. If that were all that God did then we would all respond, in the negative. Thanks be to the Lord that that isn't all that He does. He also inwardly calls those He has chosen for redemption. It is this inward call that brings about a new birth.

I am taking it a step further and advocating that God predestines us according to our capacity to respond; therefore, we are free from the claim of works-based salvation, for God is not choosing according to our spiritual standing, but according to His love, which is unconditional and therefore universal, and therefore weighing on our capacity to respond, for love is not self-seeking (1 Cor. 13:5).

How can you be "free from the claim of works-based salvation" and your salvation be predestined "according to your capacity to respond?" Your response to the call of God IS a work.:scratch:

If God chooses men without conditions on their part, how is He choosing them? According to His purpose, the Calvinist would respond. But what is His purpose?

To bring glory to Himself by picking out a people amongst His enemy and redeeming them and making them His own.

In short, those who are capable of being loved are loved.

Great thought...oh yeah, there's that pesky Scriptural basis that you need to show this. Good luck. The Bible is rife with examples of all of mankinds natural, fallen, rebellious response to God.

God bless
 
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Received

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God does elect unconditionally. That is, His election unto salvation is not based on works past, present or future. It is based on His divine purpose which is fulfilled through the election, regeneration, sanctification and glorification of His chosen. An election that is nothing more than an "open response by anyone who would dare to respond" is a nonsensical statement for numerous reasons. First, because it fails to take into account man's natural, inherent desire to flee from God in rebellion. Secondly, it presupposes that "a response" to the elective call of God is only "a response" if it's a positive response. Everyone responds to the outward call of God. If that were all that God did then we would all respond, in the negative. Thanks be to the Lord that that isn't all that He does. He also inwardly calls those He has chosen for redemption. It is this inward call that brings about a new birth.
This is where I disagree. While man may not seek God in his natural state, he still is capable of seeking God on the basis of light revealed to Him. Unless we admit this, we have blatant contradiction between Romans 3 and Acts 17. Men were naturally drawn in by the wonder and beauty of Jesus. If we must conclude that God imparts a little of His purpose in us that we are unconscious of, blame impressed upon unbelievers would be pointless, for if that which they are commanded to do is impossible without God's help, extraneous punishment is unjust. It is like blaming a man for congenital cancer.

How can you be "free from the claim of works-based salvation" and your salvation be predestined "according to your capacity to respond?" Your response to the call of God IS a work.:scratch:

I disagree. You do not work for a gift by accepting it. If this were so, the gift would not be a gift, but the result of debt. So it goes with the soteriological realm.

To bring glory to Himself by picking out a people amongst His enemy and redeeming them and making them His own.


But this is an empty response unless we ask how this glory is imparted. I maintain that it is through love, for God is love. And if God is love, love is not self-seeking, as Paul would have it in 1 Cor. 13. And if love is not self-seeking, God's intention in creating the world cannot be solely for His own benefit, or else He is not love. It must therefore be an after-effect: the result of Him imparting benevolence upon His creation. His purpose is His glory, but His glory is a naught without His love for His creation. God's purpose is to express His infinite love; the result is His glory. To seek glory in itself is not to seek glory at all, but tyranny.
 
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Reformationist

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Received said:
This is where I disagree. While man may not seek God in his natural state, he still is capable of seeking God on the basis of light revealed to Him. Unless we admit this, we have blatant contradiction between Romans 3 and Acts 17. Men were naturally drawn in by the wonder and beauty of Jesus. If we must conclude that God imparts a little of His purpose in us that we are unconscious of, blame impressed upon unbelievers would be pointless, for if that which they are commanded to do is impossible without God's help, extraneous punishment is unjust. It is like blaming a man for congenital cancer.


God reveals Himself through creation. This revelation is insufficient, in and of itself, to bring one to a salvitic knowledge of God. This is painfully obvious in our present day. We have scientists who seek to explain the world around them in every way except by Divine creation. In fact, I'd venture to say that they would be more apt to accept the ideas espoused by wiccanism then that of Christianity.

It sounds like, if I understand it correctly, you're having an issue with how God can ascribe fault for one's own sinfulness if we are only able to overcome that sinfulness by His hand. Is that an accurate assessment? If so, let's not get ahead of ourselves. The first thing we have to fully grasp, in order to fully grasp our place in God's sovereign Plan, is that we are a creation. We are His creation. The proverbial fork in the road wherein we get ourselves in trouble is the application of intrinsic value. Our value, as a created being, is only valid in the sense of our Creator. Apart from Him we have neither right nor ability to exist.

So, at this point, where are we at? Where do we see ourselves in relation to God? Are we able to look at ourselves, though we be fearfully and wonderfully made creations of the Almighty, and recognize that He glorifies Himself with our existance, whatever His purpose was in making us? Are we able to separate ourselves from the grand plan that each of us think that God has for us and acknowledge that whatsoever comes to pass serves to glorify God because it is by His divine hand that it does so? In essence, can we acknowledge that we are a created being, dependant on Him for everything, to include our existance, which He is under no obligation to preserve?

Received, to adequately address this from a God centered perspective we have to first cease to be man centered in our thinking. We have to understand that no matter what we pay homage to for our ability to restrain from offending the Lord, be it our own free will or His efficacious grace, had it not been for Him, there would be no us.

Our lives are a progression. We are not, however, eternal. We have a beginning. No matter what one's philosophy is on the nature of man, the steps to salvation, interpretation of the Law, or our existance after death we can trace it all back to one point in our ancestoral history. The Fall. Why did it happen? How could it happen? How could God let it happen? Why did God let it happen? How could two people who were in complete harmony with their Creator even think about jeapordizing that relationship? I, like many Christians, sit in virtual wonderment of these nagging questions. I have my beliefs. I know what I've been taught. Regardless, it happened, I wasn't there, and the Bible isn't explicit as to why God let it happen.

So where do we start our line of questioning? Well, as I see it, we can limit it to two foundational statements. God could stop it, or, God couldn't stop it. From there we get into numerous derivations but I see, again, two main paths to follow. We can either acknowledge that God could stop it but desired that it did happen so He ensured that it would, or, we can purport that He didn't want it to happen yet it happened anyway. I, for reasons that should be obvious, choose to believe the former.

I'm sure I'm digressing so I'll get back to your statement. The issue of holding man accountable for that over which he has no control, i.e., his initial state of sinfulness, is the real question. Neither the staunch Calvinist nor the liberalist holds that man isn't responsible for his own, personally willed, freely committed sins. But what about the issue of being born into a state of rebellion from which one can only gain freedom by the divine intervention of the very One who put him there? Fortunately for us, God Himself tells us in His own Word:

Romans 9:19-21
You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?


That is what you're asking right? If God made us this way why does He still find fault, right? The best answer that I can give you is that He finds fault because we are at fault. We chose to sin. Whether you believe that we were seminally, spiritually, physically, or representatively present with Adam when he chose to commit treason against His Maker is irrelevent. The point is, God is the Creator, we are the created. He can do with us whatsoever He wishes. He chose to ensure that we would Fall. He did not force us to do it but neither did He restrain us from our own sinful desires. Whether you believe He withheld His grace from Adam, or gave Him a new nature, or allowed him to act upon a moral possibility that always existed is also irrelevent. The Truth of Scripture is that God desired man to Fall and man desired to rebell and so he did, on both counts.


I disagree. You do not work for a gift by accepting it. If this were so, the gift would not be a gift, but the result of debt.

Okay. Let me ask you something. Does God monergistically regenerate His sheep or does He merely offer salvation to someone and, depending on how they respond, He regenerates them?

But this is an empty response unless we ask how this glory is imparted. I maintain that it is through love, for God is love.

Does God receive glory for His justness? How about His wrath? Did it glorify God to reveal Himself by putting a wickedly evil man in power over all the earth for the specific purpose of bringing Him down? Is that glorifying to God? Do you think God placed Pharaoh where He placed Him out of love for Pharaoh?

And if God is love, love is not self-seeking, as Paul would have it in 1 Cor. 13.

You're making a huuuuuuge theological leap here by defining the Creator by His creation. Let me assure you, in case you are not aware, the primary cause in ALL of God's actions is His own glory. God most certainly does seek His own glory. Now, if we view that in light of the creation we are apt to see that as a self-centerend, sinful approach to how we the Lord.

And if love is not self-seeking, God's intention in creating the world cannot be solely for His own benefit, or else He is not love.

Well, being that I'm not God I certainly am in no position to speculate on the various secondary reasons why God does what He does but, as I said, His primary reason is most certainly His own glory.

His purpose is His glory, but His glory is a naught without His love for His creation.

So until God created the universe and those that inhabit He was not glorified? Is that really something you wish to espouse? God is glorified in His own being. God is glorified in His Trinitarian essence. We don't make God glorious. We just reflect it. He was already glorious before He created us. He was already all things that we know Him to be before He created us.

God's purpose is to express His infinite love; the result is His glory. To seek glory in itself is not to seek glory at all, but tyranny.

This, to me, is the saddest thing you've said so far. You cannot define the attributes of God by the fallenness of man's nature. God's glory is revealed in His love but His love is expressed for the purpose of His glory.

God bless
 
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Luchnia

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Man is chosen to salvation by sanctification and belief on the truth as it is written. The responsibility is mans. God is not liable for man's choice, if so God would be liable for man choosing to sin.

There were men born that did not seek evil. Several come to mind, Abraham, Noah, Enoch, Cornelius, John the Baptist, etc. John the Baptist was even born with the Holy Spirit from birth. Clearly the Holy Spirit in John's birth was not a "fallen" nature as is often mistaught and somehow that men have no choice but to choose darkness. The life of John the Baptist clearly refutes such misteachings.

As Jesus said, "I come not for the righteous, but the sinner." The righteous man doesn't need a docter because he is not sick.

Word up!
 
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Reformationist

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Luchnia said:
There were men born that did not seek evil. Several come to mind, Abraham, Noah, Enoch, Cornelius, John the Baptist, etc.
Umm...to say that there were several men born that did not seek evil because of God's effective grace is different than saying there were several men born who, had it not been for God's grace, most certainly would have sought evil. Now, I'm not familiar with much about the lives of each of those people but I do know that Abraham was a pagan and Noah had a drinking problem so I don't know that I'd include them in your list. Not to mention that the Word says that the every intent of the thoughts of man's heart only evil continually.Your list is just a group of men who were given special grace by God, most specifically John the Baptist. That does not mean that, in their fallen state, they would not seek evil apart from the grace of God.

John the Baptist was even born with the Holy Spirit from birth. Clearly the Holy Spirit in John's birth was not a "fallen" nature as is often mistaught and somehow that men have no choice but to choose darkness. The life of John the Baptist clearly refutes such misteachings.
I'm not sure if you're referring to the reformed teaching on the moral inability of mankind after the Fall but let me assure you that we don't teach that man didn't have a choice. He had a choice. The deciding and unalterable factor in man's nature that prevented him from choosing good was not that the choice to choose good wasn't available but rather that his desire to do good was not present so he would never choose to do good.

As Jesus said, "I come not for the righteous, but the sinner." The righteous man doesn't need a docter because he is not sick.
So Jesus didn't come for the righteous, but the sinner, huh?

Romans 3:10
As it is written:
"There is none righteous, no, not one;

Romans 3:23
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

So, according to the Word, no one is righteous and all are sinners. Who was it again, according to you, that fits into the catagory of people for whom Jesus didn't come? Who are those righteous people for whom Jesus didn't come?

God bless
 
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Luchnia

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The Scripture does not indicate that the men sought good because of God's effective grace. Not sure where you got that concept from, but the scriptures do not indicate such. Although it is partly acceptable, it is not a prerequisite for the righteous. I will admit there were many men that chose evil throughout the Word of God, but there are examples of righteous and those that chose to walk righteously. Even the sojourner in the land could do righteous, even as a stranger to the things of the God of Israel.

Jesus Himself said He did not come for the righteous, but the sinner. You being learned should know the text. If I am not mistaken He alluded to this two or more times in different manners. There certainly was a reason Jesus let us know this information. The man that is well need not a doctor, for what good would a doctor do for a well man? If you notice Jesus evangelized sinners and wicked men and left the righteous alone as there was no need to evangelize them. Why did Jesus not try to get John the Baptist saved? Certainly Jesus knew John the Baptist was vile scum and needed to become righteous?

Now lets look at the text that is used out of context to attempt to disprove and exclude righteous men:

Romans 3:10
As it is written:
"There is none righteous, no, not one;
>>>This is very simple. Who was the author writing about? Read the entire text and also go back to Isaiah and read about these people that are being written about. That should clear it up for you. These men were vile scum, wicked, evil doers, etc. There are examples of men that were not like those men the author is writing about. The author himself, for one, was not like them. Where does he fit in that text?
>>>


Romans 3:23
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God
>>>Who are the "all" that have sinned? Before Adam's fall, did he sin? Did Jesus sin? Did John the Baptist sin when he was born by the Spirit? This text does not indicate a fallen nature at all, actually it supports those that are righteous and those that are choosing sin over righteousness. Is "all" inclusively used here? If so, then Jesus sinned.

Since the fall came through Adam did that negate any choice of any man to refuse to go with the fallen? We can see it didn't when we see men like Enoch, who did not walk with the ungodly nature, but chose against it and walked with God. Why was Able righteous and Cain not, since Able had to be vile scum because he was born after the fall?

So men have a nature that they cannot change unless God makes them change it? It would seem we have some scripture that would have to be reconciled if this be the case. It might even have to be stricken from God's word to support such a view, even the very words of Jesus, Himself would have to be removed for He said that He came for the sick and not the healthy. Jesus was never a waster of words. If He said there were righteous you can bank on it!
>>>

Word up!
 
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Received

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Reformationist, very nicely stated post.

It sounds like, if I understand it correctly, you're having an issue with how God can ascribe fault for one's own sinfulness if we are only able to overcome that sinfulness by His hand. Is that an accurate assessment? If so, let's not get ahead of ourselves. The first thing we have to fully grasp, in order to fully grasp our place in God's sovereign Plan, is that we are a creation. We are His creation. The proverbial fork in the road wherein we get ourselves in trouble is the application of intrinsic value. Our value, as a created being, is only valid in the sense of our Creator. Apart from Him we have neither right nor ability to exist.
So far as I can see, that is a correct assessment. Also, in regards to our intrinsic value, I hold that man and sin are two different entities; the latter corrupting the former. Thus, regardless of the extent of our depravity, we are still intrinsically valuable -- Hitler and the apostle Paul. The very stuff we are made of, being in the image of God regardless of our fall, is what constitutes our value.

So where do we start our line of questioning? Well, as I see it, we can limit it to two foundational statements. God could stop it, or, God couldn't stop it. From there we get into numerous derivations but I see, again, two main paths to follow. We can either acknowledge that God could stop it but desired that it did happen so He ensured that it would, or, we can purport that He didn't want it to happen yet it happened anyway. I, for reasons that should be obvious, choose to believe the former.


As excellently as you have stated these concerns and theological difficulties, I will reveal to you my perception of how the Divine works: teleologically. The end justifies the means; and the goodness of His actions depend on their intentions. Of course, with this understanding, we are clearly unable to answer a great many of the theological and metaphysical questions that confound the greatest of pettifogging brains. But I believe our interpretation of God comes down to very fundamental apprehensions; is He love, or is He not? If He is, I can hold faith in the fact that regardless of how absurd certain actions appear -- such as in the Old Testament --, God has a greater end, and claims of murder or hatred established by Him are unscriptural. The question of God allowing evil in the universe is certainly a teleological concern; and, as said before, we are unable to know the full reasons. But with the understanding that God is love, we can be sure that the end will certainly amaze us all, and that our present theologies that seem to contradict this essential agapas that constitutes the very nature of God are indeed warped, base, and foolish. Would you not agree?


I'm sure I'm digressing so I'll get back to your statement. The issue of holding man accountable for that over which he has no control, i.e., his initial state of sinfulness, is the real question. Neither the staunch Calvinist nor the liberalist holds that man isn't responsible for his own, personally willed, freely committed sins. But what about the issue of being born into a state of rebellion from which one can only gain freedom by the divine intervention of the very One who put him there? Fortunately for us, God Himself tells us in His own Word:
Romans 9:19-21
You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?


That is what you're asking right? If God made us this way why does He still find fault, right? The best answer that I can give you is that He finds fault because we are at fault. We chose to sin. Whether you believe that we were seminally, spiritually, physically, or representatively present with Adam when he chose to commit treason against His Maker is irrelevent. The point is, God is the Creator, we are the created. He can do with us whatsoever He wishes. He chose to ensure that we would Fall. He did not force us to do it but neither did He restrain us from our own sinful desires. Whether you believe He withheld His grace from Adam, or gave Him a new nature, or allowed him to act upon a moral possibility that always existed is also irrelevent. The Truth of Scripture is that God desired man to Fall and man desired to rebell and so he did, on both counts.


Ah, but Reformationist, we just go all the way back to the beginning. Do those who are being made for honor and dishonor have a choice in the matter? I see no reason to exclude such a possiblity; though God may be forming men, it does not seem out of the qeustion to claim that He is doing it according to their states of being. I cannot accept the interpretion that God creates men for dishonor and places the blame on their heads; I do, however, accept the idea that God creates men for dishonor who will have nothing of Him, as with the case of Pharoah.

"A man's heart plans his way, but the Lord directs (lit. 'establishes') his steps." -- Proverbs 16:9

"Also to You, O Lord, belongs mercy; for You render to each one according to his work." -- Psalm 62:12

If those who are being created for destruction are being done so reluctantly, we must ask whether this is good -- the idea is that God hates certain men into existence, and controls their very thoughts and actions so that they would form the imperfection He wishes. Or perhaps you could argue that God does not coerce them, but allows their sinful nature to take its course. Nevertheless, you still have a creation come into being under a curse brought about not by their own choosing, and eventually eternally tormented by being the nature he is. I cannot accept this. If man's sinfulness is congenital and psychological, you cannot blame him for this, though you can blame him for what he has does with it. And this very well encapsulates the rebels of Romans 1, who supress the truth in unrighteousness. Those who repent are freed from the curse of sin, and are called to be the perfection that God held paramount with the creation of humanity.

Okay. Let me ask you something. Does God monergistically regenerate His sheep or does He merely offer salvation to someone and, depending on how they respond, He regenerates them?

I have to go with the latter. I would also note that the only work in question regarding soteriologically is the work of rebellion. To accept a gift is to fulfill the work of the one who offers; it is not a work in itself, for the gift is given without the result of prior work to attain it. No man is able to attain his own salvation, for it requires agape to fulfill it, for love is the fulfillment of the law.

Does God receive glory for His justness? How about His wrath? Did it glorify God to reveal Himself by putting a wickedly evil man in power over all the earth for the specific purpose of bringing Him down? Is that glorifying to God? Do you think God placed Pharaoh where He placed Him out of love for Pharaoh?
I believe He receives glory for His justice, for His justice is a fulfillment of His mercy, and vice-a-verca; that is to say, God's intention with justice is to bring about a greater end for the person in question, even if this end means a negation of future punishment (which includes Hell). God's wrath is His moral outrage regarding specific acts of rebellion done by His creation; it is a form of justice, for without justice, God is unjust. Ah, and in regards to the final questions, I must beg you to see the possibility of God's raising up Pharoah being on account of Pharoah's own initiative, such being contrary to God prior to God's hardening of His heart. By stating that God raised up Pharoah for the purpose of His glory is very easily a response to his pride: that God did not raise of Pharoah because of his own actions, and what he deserved thereby. This is seen all throughout scripture. The psalmist Asaph would ruminate the prosperity of the wicked with anguish in Psalm 73 only to realize that their situation is full of terrors and psychological destruction. God uses the wicked for His purpose (Proverbs 16:4). As I have argued in the past, the hardening of Pharoah's heart may very well be an expression of the curing of his cowardice in order for God to allow him to carry out what he otherwise would indeed bring to pass. The destruction of the wicked, in itself, is not good; but viewed teleologically, it is used for God's glory. In the same manner, a father does not find glory or enjoyment in disciplining his child, though glory and delight may come from it in the end.

You're making a huuuuuuge theological leap here by defining the Creator by His creation. Let me assure you, in case you are not aware, the primary cause in ALL of God's actions is His own glory. God most certainly does seek His own glory. Now, if we view that in light of the creation we are apt to see that as a self-centerend, sinful approach to how we the Lord.

I do not think I am. The love that constitues God is not created; given that it is His essence, it is eternal. I do not understand how this would negate the idea of God's glory being imparted for His specific purposes. You cannot have glory if it is coerced. God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. Nonetheless, God is love (1 John 4:8), and Paul defines what love is in 1 Corinthians 13. It is not only a valid interpretation of scripture to juxtapose these two passages to view the character of God; it is the very character of Jesus, who was in the image of God. And you cannot seperate the image and its source.

So until God created the universe and those that inhabit He was not glorified? Is that really something you wish to espouse? God is glorified in His own being. God is glorified in His Trinitarian essence. We don't make God glorious. We just reflect it. He was already glorious before He created us. He was already all things that we know Him to be before He created us.

You answered your own question: God is glorified in His trinitarian essence. If God doesn't need glory -- as I believe He doesn't --, why does He seek it? To me the answer seems to reside in the idea of His glory coming precisely from our benefit. Just as the glory of a husband is his wife, so the glory of God is, to a degree us; and likewise.

This, to me, is the saddest thing you've said so far. You cannot define the attributes of God by the fallenness of man's nature. God's glory is revealed in His love but His love is expressed for the purpose of His glory.

Hey, I'm only going by what scripture teaches.

"...God is love" (1 John 4:8)

"Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things." -- 1 Cor. 13:4-7

I am defining the attributes of God by the word He has given us. Glory sought in itself is not glory.
 
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