EGW vs. Scripture: Did John The Baptist doubt?

[NightEternal]

Well, I guess while the mad dogs are barking for my blood in the Ecumenical Report section, I might as well start right in here with some dialogue.

I was doing some reading this morning and I noticed something. It never registered before, but now the lightbulb has come on!

Here is what the text in question says:

"And John called two of his disciples to him and sent them to Jesus saying, Are you the One that is to come? Or should we look for another?" Luke 7:20

How many of us have taken comfort in this story, assured in the fact that a man as great as John was able doubt and question?

Well, take comfort no more. It's time for the ice water of TSDA dogma to be poured on your loins. Acording to EGW and the SDA Bible commentary, it was not so. Check it out:

"The question regarding the Messiahship of Jesus originated with John's disciples, NOT with John himself (see Desire Of Ages 214, 215), and John was disturbed that these men should cherish unbelief with respect to John's own testimony that Jesus was indeed the promised One (see Desire Of Ages 216).

John did not surrender his faith that Jesus was indeed the Christ (see Desire of Ages 216). Disappointment and anxiety troubled the soul of the lonely prisoner, but he refrained from discussing these perplexities of his own mind with his disciples." (SDA Bible Commentary Vol.5, P.758)

Never mind the fact that none of this is even remotely found in the text anywhere or that the text actually implies the very opposite-that John sent his followers with his own personal message consisting of questions that were his own-this version of the story is just blindly accepted as truth when there is no concieveable way EGW's conclusions can be arrived at by straight-forward exegesis.

Isn't there something in Revelation about adding things to the Scriptures? Anyone here eager to have the plagues added unto them? Not me.

Have any of you noticed this discrepency with the EGW version of the John story before?

Originally I wanted to post this in the debate subforum after my ban period ends, but I imagine this information would be about as welcome as a pedophile in a day-care center.

Since my discernment lately regarding what things I say which could get me banned has been severely lacking, I thought I would run this by you guys first and see what you think. Would this study get me in trouble? Should I even bother posting it and run the risk of raising the ire of the EGW venerators out there and possibly get cast off a cliff by the angry mob?

Or should I just leave them in thier warm little EGW womb blindness undisturbed?

What say ye o Prog bretheren and sisteren?

 

[StormyOne]

where the scripture is silent its best to leave it be.... when egw is used to fill in the spaces of silence in scripture it can be (and often is) a very slippery slope...

 

[Mankin]

I'm sure they would never accept it. Can anyone say denial!

 

[RND]

Nothing in the OP seems to be in these pages of DA.

Chapter 22

Imprisonment and Death of John

[This chapter is based on Matt. 11:1-11; 14:1-11; Mark 6:17-28; Luke 7:19-28.]

John the Baptist had been first in heralding Christ's kingdom, and he was first also in suffering. From the free air of the wilderness and the vast throngs that had hung upon his words, he was now shut in by the walls of a dungeon cell. He had become a prisoner in the fortress of Herod Antipas. In the territory east of Jordan, which was under the dominion of Antipas, much of John's ministry had been spent. Herod himself had listened to the preaching of the Baptist. The dissolute king had trembled under the call to repentance. "Herod feared John, knowing that he was a just man and an holy; . . . and when he heard him, he did many things, and heard him gladly." John dealt with him faithfully, denouncing his iniquitous alliance with Herodias, his brother's wife. For a time Herod feebly sought to break the chain of lust that bound him; but Herodias fastened him the more firmly in her toils, and found revenge upon the Baptist by inducing Herod to cast him into prison.

The life of John had been one of active labor, and the gloom and inaction of his prison life weighed heavily upon him. As week after week passed, bringing no change, despondency and doubt crept over him. His disciples did not forsake him. They were allowed access to the prison, and they brought him tidings of the works of Jesus, and told how the people were flocking to Him. But they questioned why, if this

Page 215

new teacher was the Messiah, He did nothing to effect John's release. How could He permit His faithful herald to be deprived of liberty and perhaps of life?

These questions were not without effect. Doubts which otherwise would never have arisen were suggested to John. Satan rejoiced to hear the words of these disciples, and to see how they bruised the soul of the Lord's messenger. Oh, how often those who think themselves the friends of a good man, and who are eager to show their fidelity to him, prove to be his most dangerous enemies! How often, instead of strengthening his faith, their words depress and dishearten!

Like the Saviour's disciples, John the Baptist did not understand the nature of Christ's kingdom. He expected Jesus to take the throne of David; and as time passed, and the Saviour made no claim to kingly authority, John became perplexed and troubled. He had declared to the people that in order for the way to be prepared before the Lord, the prophecy of Isaiah must be fulfilled; the mountains and hills must be brought low, the crooked made straight, and the rough places plain. He had looked for the high places of human pride and power to be cast down. He had pointed to the Messiah as the One whose fan was in His hand, and who would thoroughly purge His floor, who would gather the wheat into His garner, and burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire. Like the prophet Elijah, in whose spirit and power he had come to Israel, he looked for the Lord to reveal Himself as a God that answereth by fire.

In his mission the Baptist had stood as a fearless reprover of iniquity, both in high places and in low. He had dared to face King Herod with the plain rebuke of sin. He had not counted his life dear unto himself, that he might fulfill his appointed work. And now from his dungeon he watched for the Lion of the tribe of Judah to cast down the pride of the oppressor, and to deliver the poor and him that cried. But Jesus seemed to content Himself with gathering disciples about Him, and healing and teaching the people. He was eating at the tables of the publicans, while every day the Roman yoke rested more heavily upon Israel, while King Herod and his vile paramour worked their will, and the cries of the poor and suffering went up to heaven.

Page 216

To the desert prophet all this seemed a mystery beyond his fathoming. There were hours when the whisperings of demons tortured his spirit, and the shadow of a terrible fear crept over him. Could it be that the long-hoped-for Deliverer had not yet appeared? Then what meant the message that he himself had been impelled to bear? John had been bitterly disappointed in the result of his mission. He had expected that the message from God would have the same effect as when the law was read in the days of Josiah and of Ezra (2 Chronicles 34; Nehemiah 8, 9); that there would follow a deep-seated work of repentance and returning unto the Lord. For the success of this mission his whole life had been sacrificed. Had it been in vain?

John was troubled to see that through love for him, his own disciples were cherishing unbelief in regard to Jesus. Had his work for them been fruitless? Had he been unfaithful in his mission, that he was now cut off from labor? If the promised Deliverer had appeared, and John had been found true to his calling, would not Jesus now overthrow the oppressor's power, and set free His herald?

But the Baptist did not surrender his faith in Christ. The memory of the voice from heaven and the descending dove, the spotless purity of Jesus, the power of the Holy Spirit that had rested upon John as he came into the Saviour's presence, and the testimony of the prophetic scriptures,--all witnessed that Jesus of Nazareth was the Promised One.

John would not discuss his doubts and anxieties with his companions. He determined to send a message of inquiry to Jesus. This he entrusted to two of his disciples, hoping that an interview with the Saviour would confirm their faith, and bring assurance to their brethren. And he longed for some word from Christ spoken directly for himself.

The disciples came to Jesus with their message, "Art Thou He that should come, or do we look for another?"

How short the time since the Baptist had pointed to Jesus, and proclaimed, "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." "He it is, who coming after me is preferred before me." John 1:29, 27. And now the question, "Art Thou He that should come?" It was keenly bitter and disappointing to human nature. If John, the faithful forerunner, failed to discern Christ's mission, what could be expected from the self-seeking multitude?

The Saviour did not at once answer the disciples' question. As they stood wondering at His silence, the sick and afflicted were coming to Him to be healed. The blind were groping their way through the crowd;

 

[Jon0388g]

Nothing in the OP seems to be in these pages of DA.

I can't find those quotes either?

From the EGWdatabase, Mrs White says:

"Like the Saviour's disciples, John the Baptist did not understand the nature of Christ's kingdom. He expected Jesus to take the throne of David; and as time passed, and the Saviour made no claim to kingly authority, John became perplexed and troubled.....John was troubled to see that through love for him, his own disciples were cherishing unbelief in regard to Jesus.....But the Baptist did not surrender his faith in Christ."


1) John was troubled that Christ hadn't taken the throne of David

2) He was also troubled that his disciples were cherishing unbelief in regard to the Messiahship of Christ

3) Yet, he himself never doubted that Christ was the Messiah.

She then goes on to say that, in order for "hoping that an interview with the Saviour would confirm their faith, and bring assurance to their brethren".


The "word from Christ for himself" must have been John's hope in regard to why Christ hadn't overtaken Jerusalem, not an assurance that He was in fact the Messiah. John never doubted this.



It's a shame some will read and study the anti-EGW websites more thoroughly than they will her writings themselves.

 

[sentipente]

Nothing in the OP seems to be in these pages of DA.

Chapter 22

Imprisonment and Death of John
Page 216

To the desert prophet all this seemed a mystery beyond his fathoming. There were hours when the whisperings of demons tortured his spirit, and the shadow of a terrible fear crept over him. Could it be that the long-hoped-for Deliverer had not yet appeared? Then what meant the message that he himself had been impelled to bear? John had been bitterly disappointed in the result of his mission. He had expected that the message from God would have the same effect as when the law was read in the days of Josiah and of Ezra (2 Chronicles 34; Nehemiah 8, 9); that there would follow a deep-seated work of repentance and returning unto the Lord. For the success of this mission his whole life had been sacrificed. Had it been in vain?

John was troubled to see that through love for him, his own disciples were cherishing unbelief in regard to Jesus. Had his work for them been fruitless? Had he been unfaithful in his mission, that he was now cut off from labor? If the promised Deliverer had appeared, and John had been found true to his calling, would not Jesus now overthrow the oppressor's power, and set free His herald?

But the Baptist did not surrender his faith in Christ. The memory of the voice from heaven and the descending dove, the spotless purity of Jesus, the power of the Holy Spirit that had rested upon John as he came into the Saviour's presence, and the testimony of the prophetic scriptures,--all witnessed that Jesus of Nazareth was the Promised One.

Obviously, the source used in the OP is inaccurate but it is also obvious that DA is confusing. In the first cited paragraph John is tormented with doubt but the second paragraph says he is surprised that his disciples also had doubt. Finally, the third paragraph says he did not surrender his faith in Christ.

 

[RND]

Obviously, the source used in the OP is inaccurate but it is also obvious that DA is confusing.

That was my point in posting DA verbatim. To set the record straight.

In the first cited paragraph John is tormented with doubt

On page 216 Mrs. White said John that "...the shadow of a terrible fear crept over him."

Senti, are you saying fear and doubt are the same thing?

but the second paragraph says he is surprised that his disciples also had doubt.

More than doubt I think. "...his own disciples were cherishing unbelief in regard to Jesus."

Finally, the third paragraph says he did not surrender his faith in Christ.

I think it is typical for any Christian, at some point, to experience some "doubt" without losing faith. How about you senti?

 

[sentipente]

I think it is typical for any Christian, at some point, to experience some "doubt" without losing faith. How about you senti?

Will you at least make the effort to keep focussed. The issue here is not about doubt.

 

[RND]

Will you at least make the effort to keep focussed. The issue here is not about doubt.

Sorry senti. I thought I'd try a bit of dialogue with you. I should have known that was impossible.

Of course, I'm certain the thread title had you somewhat mixed up.

"EGW vs. Scripture: Did John The Baptist doubt?"

 

[sentipente]

Whether John the Baptist doubted is not a general discussion about doubt.

 

[Mankin]

Sorry senti. I thought I'd try a bit of dialogue with you. I should have known that was impossible.

Of course, I'm certain the thread title had you somewhat mixed up.

"EGW vs. Scripture: Did John The Baptist doubt?"

Stay on topic and stop trying to bait Senti.

 

[RND]

Whether John the Baptist doubted is not a general discussion about doubt.

But being that "doubt" was part of the topic I felt I could dialog with you regarding "doubt" in general. Again, that was my mistake. I should have known you weren't able or willing to discuss anything.

 

[sentipente]

But being that "doubt" was part of the topic I felt I could dialog with you regarding "doubt" in general. Again, that was my mistake. I should have known you weren't able or willing to discuss anything.

You are free to start another thread on that topic. No rabbit trails.

 

[Mankin]

The purpose of this thread is whether or not EGW claimed it was all John's displices doubting and not him(my spelling stinks I know).

 

[RND]

The purpose of this thread is whether or not EGW claimed it was all John's displices doubting and not him(my spelling stinks I know).

Mankin, that's not part of the OP.

The OP stated two supposed facts that have been shown to be mistaken:

"The question regarding the Messiahship of Jesus originated with John's disciples, NOT with John himself (see Desire Of Ages 214, 215), and John was disturbed that these men should cherish unbelief with respect to John's own testimony that Jesus was indeed the promised One (see Desire Of Ages 216).

John did not surrender his faith that Jesus was indeed the Christ (see Desire of Ages 216). Disappointment and anxiety troubled the soul of the lonely prisoner, but he refrained from discussing these perplexities of his own mind with his disciples." (SDA Bible Commentary Vol.5, P.758)

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

Mankin, that's not part of the OP.

Once again a "Mr. Know it all" type is here to tell us what the intentions of the opening poster are. And how does he do it. By copying Ellen White quotes and not even the observations of the opening poster.

Even though the Open post says:

Never mind the fact that none of this is even remotely found in the text anywhere or that the text actually implies the very opposite-that John sent his followers with his own personal message consisting of questions that were his own-this version of the story is just blindly accepted as truth when there is no concieveable way EGW's conclusions can be arrived at by straight-forward exegesis.

Isn't there something in Revelation about adding things to the Scriptures? Anyone here eager to have the plagues added unto them? Not me.

Have any of you noticed this discrepency with the EGW version of the John story before?

I wish that these people with their mind reading abilities would leave the Progressive subforum. It is bad enough to have to deal with them in the discussion forum but to have them come here and spread their nonsense is really too much.

 

[RND]

Once again a "Mr. Know it all" type is here to tell us what the intentions of the opening poster are. And how does he do it. By copying Ellen White quotes and not even the observations of the opening poster.

Even though the Open post says:


I wish that these people with their mind reading abilities would leave the Progressive subforum. It is bad enough to have to deal with them in the discussion forum but to have them come here and spread their nonsense is really too much.

Have any of you noticed this discrepency with the EGW version of the John story before?

There is no discrepancy, or haven't you noticed RC?

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

Oh I forgot. EGW is sacred writ to the TSDA and therefore it cannot say what it says and EGW's version will trump everything else.

But wait this is not the Traditional Subforum and though assumptions don't fly here. So explain how their is no discrepancy and you won't have to use your rather faulty mind reading abilities.

 

[RND]

So explain how their is no discrepancy and you won't have to use your rather faulty mind reading abilities.

Because the OP stated one thing that can not be confirmed by simply reading the source that the OP said was in error.

2 other posters confirmed this in their posts as well.

 

[sentipente]

The OP correctly quoted the DA as saying that John was disturbed that his disciples doubted. Check your reading, RND.