Just a question what is the result in our society of anyone who tries to live the apostolic life? How does that person fare in the market driven society?
Jeff the Finn
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Economic Implications of the Didache
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Jeff the Finn
MariaRegina
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Dearest Jeff:
There have always been rich Christians. They had successful businesses and donated large sums of money to the Church. They just knew how to manage money without becoming excessively attached to it. That's very hard to do. In fact, most people who come into wealth cannot handle it.
Look at St. Nicholas the Wonderworker. He was from an extremely wealthy family and gave away his wealth.
Any other comments from anyone?
There have always been rich Christians. They had successful businesses and donated large sums of money to the Church. They just knew how to manage money without becoming excessively attached to it. That's very hard to do. In fact, most people who come into wealth cannot handle it.
Look at St. Nicholas the Wonderworker. He was from an extremely wealthy family and gave away his wealth.
Any other comments from anyone?
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What happens to the business person who is more concerned about their employees welfare and customers welfare than the bottom line? Helmult Thieleke a Lutheran Theologian in his Theological Ethics said it was almost a question if who want to deal yourself in or not in the market system, which he said at root is athiestic. If in you are confined by its rules of survival and the concerns of the Gospel take the back burner or you stay out. The implication is that another law is at work and not of the Gospel.
Jeff the finn
Jeff the finn
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MariaRegina
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My dearest Jeff:
humanistic secularism
Today's market is different than the ancient Christians experienced.
Today, it is a total immersion into humanistic secularism. I saw a TV documentary on day traders. These guys got fat just sitting by the computer stuffing themselves and not getting proper sleep due to the amount of research they had to do. Then they got sleepy and made mistakes. It was a downward spiral where they would borrow money to make more trades only to lose it. Many men ended up committing suicide.
christian enterprises
When the Christian employer is truly concerned about his employees and his customers but also has business savvy, he can make it work. There are Christian businessmen in my church who own successful restaurants. They work hard, but share their wealth with the Church and other charities. They are very friendly and outgoing = good examples to all of us. Just because a person is rich doesn't mean that he is necessarily evil. We shouldn't judge others, but pray for everyone.
Again, look at St. Nicholas the Wonderworker. He was from a wealthy family and knew how to properly use his gift of wealth to benefit the Church and society. There were many other wealthy saints.
On the other hand, look at Ananias and Sapphira, they were instantly killed by God when they lied to St. Peter about their wealth.
Some people can't handle wealth and other people can.
Hope this helps!
Elizabeth
humanistic secularism
Today's market is different than the ancient Christians experienced.
Today, it is a total immersion into humanistic secularism. I saw a TV documentary on day traders. These guys got fat just sitting by the computer stuffing themselves and not getting proper sleep due to the amount of research they had to do. Then they got sleepy and made mistakes. It was a downward spiral where they would borrow money to make more trades only to lose it. Many men ended up committing suicide.
christian enterprises
When the Christian employer is truly concerned about his employees and his customers but also has business savvy, he can make it work. There are Christian businessmen in my church who own successful restaurants. They work hard, but share their wealth with the Church and other charities. They are very friendly and outgoing = good examples to all of us. Just because a person is rich doesn't mean that he is necessarily evil. We shouldn't judge others, but pray for everyone.
Again, look at St. Nicholas the Wonderworker. He was from a wealthy family and knew how to properly use his gift of wealth to benefit the Church and society. There were many other wealthy saints.
On the other hand, look at Ananias and Sapphira, they were instantly killed by God when they lied to St. Peter about their wealth.
Some people can't handle wealth and other people can.
Hope this helps!
Elizabeth
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Papist, I am glad someone feels the same way as I do! Once I had a fellow tell me, "Jeff, you're smart you could write your own ticket." I just said that is not the purpose of life, to write my own ticket. I mean how many people does one step on to write one's own ticket? I want to help people not hurt them.Papist said:
Jeff the Finn
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Papist
Hannah and Rowan's Dad
jeffthefinn said:
My personal view is that the current capitalist system is a result of heretical thinking. One of the main thinkers behind the ideology was Adam Smith, whose 'invisible hand' theology of the market came not from Christianity, but from Stoicism. Yes, the market system as, at root, atheistic.
We live in a world where the bottom line is the main concern -- which is why I believe that we need laws to protect employees and customers. Here in the EU, we have those laws in place. There is a level playing field: it does not affect competition because everyone has to abide by the employee and consumer protection laws.
I believe that it is easier to be a Christian business-person in a social-democratic economy such as Europe, Canada or New Zealand than it would be in the USA, where competition requires you to cut ethical corners.
Personally, I do not see how being Republican in the USA is compatible with Christianity -- but perhaps that is due to my own limited understanding.
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MariaRegina
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jeffthefinn said:
Papist said:
Dearest Papist:
A. Back then in Apostolic Times:
(1) Did they have electric lights that can keep you awake all night?
(2) Did they have alarm clocks that can wake you up at any hour?
(3) Did car, auto and jet exhaust contribute to the smog?
(4) Did they have jobs that had you working 24 hours on and 12 hours off?
(5) Did they have processed, chemical, artificial foods?
(6) Did they have the diabetes rates we have today?
I think we do have it more difficult today. We live in crowded cities, with constant noise and smog pollution. Then most people enjoyed the rural life. Truly, they did not have the large food industries and famines occurred more often.
B. No, wealthy people who followed the Gospel of Christ during the Apostolic times were not losers then, and neither are wealthy Christians losers today. Many wealthy people contributed property and money to the Church, as they do today, and enabled it to grow and to prosper. It's just that some people (not too many) know how to manage a business honestly, be charitable, and follow Christ. It takes a very balanced person to do this. We should not judge. Look at the good Bob Hope did. I have a pretty good hunch that he's in heaven and they are all enjoying a good laugh.
C. True we are all called to live the SPIRIT of poverty, but that doesn't mean that we should move onto skid row. Those with business savvy should prosper so that they can help the less fortunate. Remember the parable of the talents. These businessmen and women will be held accountable for how they spent their talents. They will be judged more harshly than the poor for their stewardship talents.
I am not infallible, so correct me if you have a good point to make!
It's just that we should not label all the rich folks as being corrupt, egotistical, mean, and rotten. Christ told us not to judge, but to pray for the salvation of all.
Your sister in Christ,
Elizabeth
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Papist
Hannah and Rowan's Dad
chanterhanson said:
I agree wholeheartedly! That is why I am a social democrat rather than an out-and-out socialist. I think the system you have in the USA does not encourage the helping-the-less-fortunate bit. Social democracy sees wealth as a tool for improving everyone's lives. It has its flaws, yes, but in countries where it's accepted wholeheartedly by the majority, it works very well.
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MariaRegina
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Dearest Papist and Jeff.
We are discussing the Didache. I've taken several college classes in Economics and maybe we can have a formal debate on Christian Economics, but please do not debate Economics here. Any takers on a debate in the formal debate forum? Please inquire over there!
How does the Didache teach us to live our lives? I think we should use our talents for the Kingdom of God here on this earth, so that we can evangelize and preach the Gospel to the whole world.
Do you agree? Mission work takes money, doesn't it? Now don't we need entrepreneurial skills to make money for the Church? Business is not bad if we are Christian and honest.
Lovingly yours in Christ,
Elizabeth
We are discussing the Didache. I've taken several college classes in Economics and maybe we can have a formal debate on Christian Economics, but please do not debate Economics here. Any takers on a debate in the formal debate forum? Please inquire over there!
How does the Didache teach us to live our lives? I think we should use our talents for the Kingdom of God here on this earth, so that we can evangelize and preach the Gospel to the whole world.
Do you agree? Mission work takes money, doesn't it? Now don't we need entrepreneurial skills to make money for the Church? Business is not bad if we are Christian and honest.
Lovingly yours in Christ,
Elizabeth
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Philip
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I have split this thread out of the main Didache discussion...I think it is deserving of its own thread.
The Didache makes some powerful statements about how we should live our lives. Many of them are directly opposed to our modern market-driven economy.
The Didache makes some powerful statements about how we should live our lives. Many of them are directly opposed to our modern market-driven economy.
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How does one get wealthy? Is it by paying as low of wages to one's workers as you can get away with? Charging as much as you can for your product? When hard times hit, does the wealthy Christian watch his or her income to fall to zero before laying people off, or do they lay people off to make sure the profits keep coming? When Our Lord says Blessed are you Poor, he means just that those with nothing, no assets, no cash. How does his curse fit, Woe to those who are rich, play out today? In the market system as Ted Nugent sings dog eat dog, how does living with the other first, get you ahead? Does owning stock which you want a return on make you guilt free when that company lays hundreds off to sweeten the bottom line? What about those workers who used that job to put food in their children's bellies and a roof over their heads? Did you take from them for yourself? St Basil said property is theft. If I have something, someone else does not have, that has not changed in the least. As Lester Thurow points out in his book Zero-Sum Society.
Some think that the Old Testament is stricter than the New, but they judge wrongly; they are fooling themselves. The old law did not punish the desire to hold on to wealth; it punished theft. But now the rich man is not condemned for taking the property of others; rather, he is condemned for not giving his property away.
St Gregory the Great Pope of Rome
Jeff the Finn
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The question is how is that money earned? Is it earned at the expense of someone else? If so how can that be Christian according to the Didache?chanterhanson said:
Jeff the Finn
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MariaRegina
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Dearest Jeff:
We are not to judge. There are good honest Christian businessmen at my church who are millionaires and they donate a lot to the Church. Our church has lost a lot of money in these special growth funds (stock market). As a result, we have to depend on these millionaires to bail the Church out, otherwise, it would mean no repairs on our old church and hall. The annual pledges just aren't enough.
Perhaps that is why many OCA churches struggle, many parish members work for someone else and never get paid enough to give a good endowment fund to the church.
Look at the Greeks and the Antiochians, they are into restaurants, engineering, law, medicine, etc. That is why they have great churches and lovely homes. Then they build fantastic schools, orphanages, special camps for the disabled or for those suffering from cancer, senior citizen homes, etc. This is what I mean. These churches are into funding charities that offer food to the world and missionary support to build churches in Africa, etc.
Look at all the work Bob Hope did. He was very wealthy and gave away millions to build churches, hospitals, schools, etc. BTW: he converted to Catholicism in 1996.
Lovingly yours in Christ,
Elizabeth
We are not to judge. There are good honest Christian businessmen at my church who are millionaires and they donate a lot to the Church. Our church has lost a lot of money in these special growth funds (stock market). As a result, we have to depend on these millionaires to bail the Church out, otherwise, it would mean no repairs on our old church and hall. The annual pledges just aren't enough.
Perhaps that is why many OCA churches struggle, many parish members work for someone else and never get paid enough to give a good endowment fund to the church.
Look at the Greeks and the Antiochians, they are into restaurants, engineering, law, medicine, etc. That is why they have great churches and lovely homes. Then they build fantastic schools, orphanages, special camps for the disabled or for those suffering from cancer, senior citizen homes, etc. This is what I mean. These churches are into funding charities that offer food to the world and missionary support to build churches in Africa, etc.
Look at all the work Bob Hope did. He was very wealthy and gave away millions to build churches, hospitals, schools, etc. BTW: he converted to Catholicism in 1996.
Lovingly yours in Christ,
Elizabeth
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