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Here Skillz151, is part of the dilema in this thread . .earlier, Symes posted that to eat swine was a grave sin and that those who did so would go to hell . .Skillz151 said:SDA of course (don't roll your eyes) Thereslilflower, I'm not telling him what to do*insidej/k*
Anywho, I seem to missing your point. I was refuting what Andre thought ACTS meant.
The topic was eating pork grave sin?
Well let me clear something up. I don't think eating pork is a grave sin but it is a sin by defilling your body (temple). I'm not saying you will be rejected by Christ because you ate a "ham sammich" but God loves his children(right) and he wants to make sure that they stay healthy.
Now we all know that Scavengers are here to clean up the earth by eating "waste" right? And Scientist have even concluded that these animals are not good for your health.(something the Bible has mentioned long before they investigated) Let's not forget about the PIG and all of its nasty habits.
Now you can insist that these animals are clean all you(not directed towards deu58, but everyone)want but you really must look inside yourself and ask yourself is it worth it? The Bible says these animals are unclean, but somehow now they are good for you to eat all of a sudden? I don't think so. http://www.amazingdiscoveries.org/amazingdiet/clean-unclean.htm
The Bible and todays Scientist have declared these animals as "non-healthy aka unclean" but if you insist they are "good" then by all means... EAT UP. *pun intended*
flesh99 said:Oh now milk is bad for you? YOu have got to be kidding me, that is nothing but vegan propoganda. This is exactly the doctrine of demons refered to in 1 Timothy. It certainly lines up with that scripture.
Hi Skillz151Skillz151 said:Hi theresealilflower nice to see ya.
Check this out and tell me what you think.
http://64.180.102.203/amazingdiet/clean-unclean.htm
In Genesis 1:29 God said:
"I give you every seed-bearing plant (grains, legumes and seeds) on the face of the whole earth; and every tree that has fruit with seed in it," verse 29 (This includes nuts
In Genesis 7:2, there is reference to seven pairs of each kind of clean animal, and only two pairs of each kind of unclean animal going into the ark. Thus, the concept of clean and unclean, is not a Jewish concept and has no ceremonial connotations, but emanated from the times before the flood. We are going to make a brief study of this very concept of "clean" and "unclean".
God wants us to be healthy, and sets out specific guidelines as to what we should and should not eat.
"This is a lasting ordinance for the generations to come, wherever you live; you must not eat any fat, or any blood." Leviticus 3:17
And the Lord spake unto Moses and Aaron, saying unto them: 'Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, these are the beasts which ye shall eat amongst all the beasts that are on the earth'". Leviticus 11: 1,2
"Whatsoever parteth the hoof and is cloven-footed, and cheweth the cud among the beasts; that shall ye eat."
These shall ye eat of all that are in the waters; whatsoever has fins and ?scales in the waters, in the seas and in the rivers; them shall ye eat; and all that have not fins and scales, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you." Leviticus 11;9,10
Leviticus 11:37, 38 continues:
"If a carcass (of an unclean animal) falls on a seed which is to be sown, it shall remain clean; but if water falls on that seed, while the carcass is there, it is unclean. You must not plant it. You must not eat it."
God here is concerned not that the seed will yield bad fruit, but that it may be genetically impaired by the chemicals thus released when water is involved.
God is concerned with the health of all His creatures - man and beast
We can turn to a story in Acts 10, where Peter, some time after the Lord's resurrection, and after the stoning of Stephen, has a vision of unclean animals in a huge sheet; and a voice saying; "Arise, Peter; kill and eat," and what does Peter declare?
He had already been told by Jesus, some years previously, about what goes into our mouth and what comes out, and apparently had not taken it to heart, for he now says:
"Not so, Lord. For I have never eaten anything that is common or unclean!"
No, Jesus had been talking about something else at that time.
Peter, himself, was left wondering just what this symbolic dream meant; verse 17. He obviously knew it was symbolic and not literal and went downstairs to meet his visitors from Cornelius, still thinking about the vision; verse 19.
However, by the time he had started talking with Cornelius the following day Peter had realized just what the vision meant. In verse 28, he says:
"You are well aware it is against our law for a Jew to visit a Gentile; but God has shown me that I should not call any man unclean."
The visible effects of the Holy Spirit on all the household of Cornelius, confirmed God's intention of calling what was 'previously unclean, as now being 'clean' or acceptable. Peter had understood his vision correctly. Most Christians today do not. The vision of the unclean animals had nothing to do with what we should or should not eat.
This vision of Peter's was the Great Commission to go out to all nations and preach the gospel. The great prophetic clock had stuck. The 490 years for the spreading of the gospel amongst the Jews had come to an end in 34 A.D.
"I beseech you therefore brethren, by the mercy of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice; holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service." Romans 12:1
Is it not reasonable to care for these bodies God has given us, for His Spirit to dwell in?
Skillz151 said:Hi theresealilflower nice to see ya.
Check this out and tell me what you think.
http://64.180.102.203/amazingdiet/clean-unclean.htm
In Genesis 1:29 God said:
"I give you every seed-bearing plant (grains, legumes and seeds) on the face of the whole earth; and every tree that has fruit with seed in it," verse 29 (This includes nuts
In Genesis 7:2, there is reference to seven pairs of each kind of clean animal, and only two pairs of each kind of unclean animal going into the ark. Thus, the concept of clean and unclean, is not a Jewish concept and has no ceremonial connotations, but emanated from the times before the flood. We are going to make a brief study of this very concept of "clean" and "unclean".
This designation was for sacrifices only and had nothing to do with food, anything you base off it having to with food it already false. Meat wasn't even eaten yet so how could it be a food designation?
God wants us to be healthy, and sets out specific guidelines as to what we should and should not eat.
"This is a lasting ordinance for the generations to come, wherever you live; you must not eat any fat, or any blood." Leviticus 3:17
And the Lord spake unto Moses and Aaron, saying unto them: 'Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, these are the beasts which ye shall eat amongst all the beasts that are on the earth'". Leviticus 11: 1,2
"Whatsoever parteth the hoof and is cloven-footed, and cheweth the cud among the beasts; that shall ye eat."
These shall ye eat of all that are in the waters; whatsoever has fins and ?scales in the waters, in the seas and in the rivers; them shall ye eat; and all that have not fins and scales, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you." Leviticus 11;9,10
You totally forgot where God gave Noah EVERY LIVING CREATURE for food
Leviticus 11:37, 38 continues:
"If a carcass (of an unclean animal) falls on a seed which is to be sown, it shall remain clean; but if water falls on that seed, while the carcass is there, it is unclean. You must not plant it. You must not eat it."
God here is concerned not that the seed will yield bad fruit, but that it may be genetically impaired by the chemicals thus released when water is involved.
God is concerned with the health of all His creatures - man and beast
We can turn to a story in Acts 10, where Peter, some time after the Lord's resurrection, and after the stoning of Stephen, has a vision of unclean animals in a huge sheet; and a voice saying; "Arise, Peter; kill and eat," and what does Peter declare?
He had already been told by Jesus, some years previously, about what goes into our mouth and what comes out, and apparently had not taken it to heart, for he now says:
"Not so, Lord. For I have never eaten anything that is common or unclean!"
No, Jesus had been talking about something else at that time.
Peter, himself, was left wondering just what this symbolic dream meant; verse 17. He obviously knew it was symbolic and not literal and went downstairs to meet his visitors from Cornelius, still thinking about the vision; verse 19.
However, by the time he had started talking with Cornelius the following day Peter had realized just what the vision meant. In verse 28, he says:
"You are well aware it is against our law for a Jew to visit a Gentile; but God has shown me that I should not call any man unclean."
The visible effects of the Holy Spirit on all the household of Cornelius, confirmed God's intention of calling what was 'previously unclean, as now being 'clean' or acceptable. Peter had understood his vision correctly. Most Christians today do not. The vision of the unclean animals had nothing to do with what we should or should not eat.
Of course it did, Peter went and ATE with them, and they did not keep kosher as they were Gentiles. He went right out and had a non-kosher meal! Imagine that, God tells him that everything is clean and he goes out and eats right away, but of course it had nothing to do with food. Not to mention you fail to point out that Christ said that nothing that goes into a man's mouth can defile him
This vision of Peter's was the Great Commission to go out to all nations and preach the gospel. The great prophetic clock had stuck. The 490 years for the spreading of the gospel amongst the Jews had come to an end in 34 A.D.
The great commission is in Mark 16, this vision was showing Peter what it meant and reaffirming Christ's words about nothing defiling the man that goes in thorugh his mouth, so Peter went and ate a non-kosher meal. It is in fact the first thing he does.
"I beseech you therefore brethren, by the mercy of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice; holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service." Romans 12:1
I am healthy, very much so thank you. My temple is also ornately decorated with around 30 tattoos, is that a sin?
Is it not reasonable to care for these bodies God has given us, for His Spirit to dwell in?
OK . . I have some thoughts, . . your post selectively quoted from this article, and you left some things in your post . .Skillz151 said:Hi theresealilflower nice to see ya.
Check this out and tell me what you think.
http://64.180.102.203/amazingdiet/clean-unclean.htm
thereselittleflower said:Hi Skillz151
First, let me ask you . . have you taken time yet to read my post on Paul's instruction to choose from any food found in the market place and to eat without question any food presented to you at a pagan feast?
I asked Symes at least twice now, but the best answer he could give was "I don't know" . ..
So, would you like to take a shot at it?
http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=1735095&postcount=164
Peace in Him!
I presume you are saying that Christ ate a Torah diet to prevent making himself unclean. Why then did Christ in Mark 5 take the hand of the dead girl when bringing her back to life. In touching a dead body he would have made himself cereminially unclean. Also why did he not rebuke the woman who touched the hem of his garment in this same chapter? She was unclean because of her bleeding and in touching Jesus would have made him unclean also, yet no mention of this in the passage.Salvatore Gonzales said:I don't know what a modern Jesus would do if all
He had was a bag of pork rinds and a ham sandwich
available for 60000 people at the superdome.
I think we all know what the original Jewish Rabbi
Jesus ate --a Torah diet.
theFijian said:I presume you are saying that Christ ate a Torah diet to prevent making himself unclean. Why then did Christ in Mark 5 take the hand of the dead girl when bringing her back to life. In touching a dead body he would have made himself cereminially unclean. Also why did he not rebuke the woman who touch the hem of his garmen in this same chapter? She was unclean because of her bleeding and in touching Jesus would have made him
unclean, yet no mention of this in the passage.
Skillz151 said:I've got the target in my crosshairs..
1 Corinthians 10:25-29 says that "anything that is sold in the market eat, and ask no questions for conscience sake. If an unbeliever invites you [for dinner] and you consent to go, eat whatever is put before you and ask no questions for conscience sake [but, of course, you can ask questions for health sake, and many already do: low sodium diets, fat-free diets, allergies etc.]. But if anyone tells you, 'This food has been offered in sacrifice', abstain from eating it for the sake of him who warned you, and for conscience sake - I mean his conscience, not your own". The point this passage is making is that it is best to courteously warn your host ahead of time as to your food preferences.
It says nothing to about telling your host in advance. The term "for conscience sake" meand that nothing sold in the market will affect you in a moral or spiritual manner. Food sacrificed to PAGAN gods was forbidden and here way have Paul saying it's allright to eat it? He is saying to maintain an appearance for the sake of the non-believer but that it has no affect on us, as CHristians.
Besides, the above passages are in reference only to meats "offered in sacrifice" (1 Corinthians 10:28). Only clean animals were offered in sacrifices, never unclean animals. In the sacrifices, usually only a part of the animal was consumed. The rest was given to the priest or sold again in the market. Anyone might therefore unknowingly purchase meats offered to idols, and Paul was saying that it was okay to eat meat that was offered in sacrifice.
Wrong answer. The pagans had no such clean and unclean regulations for sacrifices. Again in the food laws eating meat that was offered to pagan gods was called unclean and here you are saying it's not? You don't agree with yourself!
Remember that the apostle Paul was writing to folowers of Christ whose sole "Scripture" was what we term the Old Testament! His teaching to the Corinthian Church was founded on the writings of the Old Testament. They were thoroughly familiar with the division of food into "clean and unclean"! As Paul wrote to Timothy: "Cling to the truths that you have learned and of which you are convinced, knowing who your teachers were, and that from infancy you have known the sacred writings which are able to make you wise unto salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All scripture is profitable for instruction in righteousness:" (2 Timothy 3:14-17). With their respect for the Old Testament, it would take some convincing that Paul was telling them to flaunt God's Laws! Especially in view of Jesus' attitude to God's Law - "I have not come to destroy [abolish] the Law" (Matthew 5:17)
Do all SDA forget the rest of the scripture in Matthew where Christ says he came to fulfill the Law and in doing so make the covenant which required the keeping of the law non-binding? This is how covenants work, when it is fulfilled it is over. Christ fulfilled the covenant. If you deny this then tell me where are the tassles on your clothes?
.
Well, I have to say that is a rather unique rendition of this passage of scripture . . I don't think I have heard anyone say before that the point of this passage is to be courteous and warn your host ahead of time regafding YOUR food preferences .. .Skillz151 said:I've got the target in my crosshairs..
1 Corinthians 10:25-29 says that "anything that is sold in the market eat, and ask no questions for conscience sake. If an unbeliever invites you [for dinner] and you consent to go, eat whatever is put before you and ask no questions for conscience sake [but, of course, you can ask questions for health sake, and many already do: low sodium diets, fat-free diets, allergies etc.]. But if anyone tells you, 'This food has been offered in sacrifice', abstain from eating it for the sake of him who warned you, and for conscience sake - I mean his conscience, not your own". The point this passage is making is that it is best to courteously warn your host ahead of time as to your food preferences.
Well, I am so dissapointed that you did not read my post that you are responding to . .Besides, the above passages are in reference only to meats "offered in sacrifice" (1 Corinthians 10:28). Only clean animals were offered in sacrifices, never unclean animals. In the sacrifices, usually only a part of the animal was consumed. The rest was given to the priest or sold again in the market. Anyone might therefore unknowingly purchase meats offered to idols, and Paul was saying that it was okay to eat meat that was offered in sacrifice.
Were they? These were GENTILE believers! They were not brought up knowing what was clean or unclean by JEWISH standards or law . . . that they would have the Old Testament, well . . they would have after they became Christians . . someone probably was given charge of a copy . , , they would have been very expensive and most would not have access to it except through whoever was given safe charge of it . . . so no, I disagree with what you just asserted here . .. there is nothing to suggest that they were very familiar with the Old Testament teachings regarding Jewish dietary laws . . your statements are based on an assumption for which you have no clear evidence . . .Remember that the apostle Paul was writing to folowers of Christ whose sole "Scripture" was what we term the Old Testament! His teaching to the Corinthian Church was founded on the writings of the Old Testament. They were thoroughly familiar with the division of food into "clean and unclean"
Well, if the Old Testament Laws were still in effect, then yes, I would have to agree with you . .As Paul wrote to Timothy: "Cling to the truths that you have learned and of which you are convinced, knowing who your teachers were, and that from infancy you have known the sacred writings which are able to make you wise unto salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All scripture is profitable for instruction in righteousness:" (2 Timothy 3:14-17). With their respect for the Old Testament, it would take some convincing that Paul was telling them to flaunt God's Laws! Especially in view of Jesus' attitude to God's Law - "I have not come to destroy [abolish] the Law" (Matthew 5:17).
Well, one of the issues that we have raised is that they don't believei n strict OT dieting . . they take some rules and discard others . .clinzey said:I see a lot of debate in this thread about Pauline letters and meanings and Jewish customs and such, but I feel that the words of Jesus are being ignored. Would those who believe in strict OT dieting please comment on Mark 7:18-19?
hello clinzeyclinzey said:I see a lot of debate in this thread about Pauline letters and meanings and Jewish customs and such, but I feel that the words of Jesus are being ignored. Would those who believe in strict OT dieting please comment on Mark 7:18-19?
Yes and I am refuting what you are claiming Acts 10 is about, Acts 10 includes food also and Peter addresses and confirms this in Acts 11Anywho, I seem to missing your point. I was refuting what Andre thought ACTS meant.
The topic was eating pork grave sin?
Where do you come up with the Idea that the Pagans only used clean animals in their sacrifices? You show a serious lack historical understanding.Besides, the above passages are in reference only to meats "offered in sacrifice" (1 Corinthians 10:28). Only clean animals were offered in sacrifices, never unclean animals. In the sacrifices, usually only a part of the animal was consumed. The rest was given to the priest or sold again in the market. Anyone might therefore unknowingly purchase meats offered to idols, and Paul was saying that it was okay to eat meat that was offered in sacrifice.
1 Corinthians 10:25-29 says that "anything that is sold in the market eat, and ask no questions for conscience sake. If an unbeliever invites you [for dinner] and you consent to go, eat whatever is put before you and ask no questions for conscience sake [but, of course, you can ask questions for health sake, and many already do: low sodium diets, fat-free diets, allergies etc.]. But if anyone tells you, 'This food has been offered in sacrifice', abstain from eating it for the sake of him who warned you, and for conscience sake - I mean his conscience, not your own". The point this passage is making is that it is best to courteously warn your host ahead of time as to your food preferences.
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