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Eastern vs. Oriental Othodoxy

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Philip

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What are the differences between the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox faiths?

I realize that we the principle difference is Chalcedon. But the more I study this, the more it seems to be a failure to understand what each other saying rather than a true Christiological difference. Are there any other point of faith on which we differ?

What would need to happen to have a reunion between our Churches?
 

Maximus

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From what I have heard, the Antiochian Patriarchate, including its churches in the states, is already in communion with the OO.

That may be the way reunion happens: bit by bit, autocephalous church by autocephalous church.

The OO I have encountered deny the charge of Monophysitism, and I believe them. They affirm the same Christology we do.

The big hang up, as I see it, is Chalcedon, which we regard as one of the Seven Ecumenical Councils of the Church and therefore authoritative. The OO, on the other hand, see Chalcedon as wrong and Ephesus (449) as a legitimate council, which we term the Latrocinium (Robbers' Synod).

It's a tough nut. We share the same doctrines, the same Apostolic Tradition, but we've gotten our history tangled up since the misunderstanding that began with Ephesus in 449 and culminated in Chalcedon in 451.

Personally, I look on the OO as fully Orthodox. I reserve the right to regard the EO view of history and the councils as the correct one, but I also understand that I don't know it all and am not smart enough to come up with a good way to clean up the mess.

I pray that Jesus will find a way to bring us together, just as I pray He will also reunite all Catholics.
 
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CopticOrthodox

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Well, I think everyone who's really studied the issues agrees that we're of one faith. But that doesn't mean reunion will be an easy thing. We have a slightly different way of looking at councils. Eastern Orthodox, from what I've seen (and I know very little, so don't think I'm speaking with great insight), tend to hold the oppinion that the 7 councils are exactly the way it had to be, and that was God's plan for laying out the faith, and to say something bad about one of the councils is practically blasphemy. In the OO Church on the other hand, we're not so hung up on councils. The councils did not create the faith, the faith did not change or progress from the time of the Apostles, and what's important to us is not that we recognize a certain set of councils, but that we hold that Apostolic faith. While the formulations of our doctrines came in a large part from the councils (which is important), the faith didn't, just the expression of the faith we have to day. What's really important is that we have the same faith, not that we explain it the same way.

So the Eastern Orthodox tend to say if we want unity, we OO have to accept the 4 councils we were not present for. We have a hard time calling councils eccumenical when we didn't even participate in them. They were also no big doctrinal issues covered there, eg one put down the iconoclast heresy, but that was never a problem for us to need a council to put it down, so why do we need it? Are point of view is lets not argue about political and lingual differences we had a long time ago, we have the same faith now, let's dialoge and work from there rather than trying to go back and change the past and make our histories at the councils all pretty.

Pope Shenouda offered to lift the anathamas with the EO's, since we are of one faith. Unforunatly the Greek Patriarch refused. It wasn't becasue we're heretics, it's because Mt. Athos broke Communion over lifting the anathamas with the Catholics, and Greeks are often raised to hate us much more, so they'd have his head if he tried to lift the anathamas with us at this point. I've met quite a few Greek Orthodox who are very strongly convinced that we're heretics, and until this residual hatred between us dies out, there's little hope for unity. I personally think that this hatred will be gone in a generation or two, and then we'll finally have the anathamas lifted.

Unfortunatly, even if the anathamas are lifted, it won't mean going to full Communion and being one automatically. At least one other issue that would have to be dealt with is divorce. The Eastern Orthodox Church allows divorce in a variety of circumstances that can somehow be construed as a form of spiritual adultury, such as abuse, substance abuse, etc, while we only allow divorce for actual adultury, as we believe Christ commanded. Also, Eastern Orthodox allows marriage to any Christian group, including Catholics and Protestants, while Oriental Orthodoxy only allows marriage within Orthodox, as we don't see it as making sense for one flesh to be both Orthodox and Protestant, or for the Holy Spirit to come down and make the two one when one of the two does not believe in Sacraments. If we were to go to full Communion then that would mean that we'd be completely unable to enfore these practices, since our people could go marry a Protestant in the EO Church, come back, and we'd have no choice but to give them Communion, so we cannot accept full unity becasue of these issues, so that we can preserve our practices.

As someone previously mentioned, there is some intercommunion between EO & OO, but this is not official. Since we recognize Eastern Orthodox as Orthodox, a properly disposed EO coming to Communion will probably be communicated, with silent approval from the bishops. However, this is hypocritical since there are anathamas between us, which is why I hope so much that the anathamas can be lifted. Once that happens this practice of allowing Communion in these cases will be ok, there'll be no problem with it. But it will still just be this limited Communion and not a full reunion until the issues of marrie and divorce can be overcome by the grace of God, either here, or in heaven, where there will be no schism or heresy, all will be orthodox and catholic, and no one will feel the need to protest.
 
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CopticOrthodox

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I don't knnw, I mean, in a lot of cities in North America there are bishops of that city for various Orthodox Churches. Why couldn't the same happen? Why couldn't we have the Coptic Orthodox Patriarch of Alexandria and the Greek Orthodox Patriarch in Commuion with each other while still being separate if all the other issues can be worked out? An issue like that seems political and not worth worrying about to me, is there something I'm missing?
 
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Philip

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CopticOrthodox said:
I don't knnw, I mean, in a lot of cities in North America there are bishops of that city for various Orthodox Churches. Why couldn't the same happen? Why couldn't we have the Coptic Orthodox Patriarch of Alexandria and the Greek Orthodox Patriarch in Commuion with each other while still being separate if all the other issues can be worked out? An issue like that seems political and not worth worrying about to me, is there something I'm missing?

The situation in North America is not ideal and needs to be resolved. I think the main thing standing in the way of a single EO Church in America is politics.

As for the Partiarch of Alexandria, the "simple" solution to me seems to be to have an Eastern and an Oriental Orthodox Partiarch for as long as God leaves both with us. Once both have been called home, a new Orthodox Patriarch could be selected from the combined Churches.
 
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Jun 24, 2003
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Philip said:
The situation in North America is not ideal and needs to be resolved.
That is quite the understatement, Philip. It is in fact heresy, as defined by the Holy and Great pan-Orthodox pan-Orthodox Synod that met in Istanbul (formerly Constantinople) in 1872. Phyletism is the term the Synod used. The Late Ecumenical Patriarch, Dimitrios, " It is truly a scandal for the unity of the Church to maintain more than one bishop in any given city; it contravenes the sacred canons and Orthodox ecclesiology. It is a scandal that is exacerbated whenever PHYLETISTIC (ethnocentric) motives play a part, a practice soundly condemned by the Orthodox Church in the last (19th) century."
Jeff the Finn
 
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chanterhanson said:
My dearest Jeff:

Christ is in our midst!

The more precise term is schism, not heresy.

YSIC

Elizabeth
Phyletism is heresy and that is what the jurisdictions in the West are based on. In San Francisco we have 3 Bishops! There should only be one. There is an OCA one, A ROCOR one and a Greek one. Let's see there is Russian, Serbian, Carptho-Rusyan. Ukrainian, Greek, Antiochian, and even now a Jerusalem diocese in America, there are others I am sure, and the main difference is ethnic background and no other reason. There is no schism, as we are all in communion with each other. The scandel of jurisdictions we will be judged harshly on. There is no reason for them and they must unite. Orthodoxy will remain marginal in the West until the juridictions are ended.
Jeff the Finn
 
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