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Easiest Defense of Sola Scriptura

chilehed

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That's probably because we aren't really "guaranteed of knowing" what the canon of Scripture is.
Then all bets are off. If we can't really be sure that any of the books of the bible really belong there, then we have no guarantee that any of them are actually God-breathed at all.


The decision was made by several ordinary church councils, not Ecumenical Councils, and more or less accepted.
They identified the documents they recognised as being the ones handed on from the Apostles. And if the decision about the identity of sacred scripture isn't incontrovertably true, if it's possible that they were written by some random schmo, then the books that we think are sacred scripures aren't incontrovertably true either because that means we can't be certain that they actually are sacred scripture.

That's not really relevant to the thread, so I'll let it go other than to say that this summary of the history is deeply flawed.

Why do we have to accept the idea that there is, anywhere, a source of incontrovertable truth?
One of the premises of the OP is that there's one source of such truth; I'd change that to at least one but otherwise I agree. Feel free to attack that premise if you wish, but I doubt you'll be able to resolve the inherent self-contradiction of the effort.

Ontologically, every existing thing is true, in that it is the expression of an idea which exists in the mind of God, who is its source. Since God necessarily exists, and since God is perfect Truth itself, then there is necessarily a source of perfect truth.
 
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sculleywr

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If you had not assumed that I meant the Confessional, then there would have been no confusion. Or if you had read all that I had said about Confession in my post describing it instead of jumping ahead of things.

The thing you're not understanding is that you make salvation contingent upon forgiveness. But salvation isn't forgiveness. Salvation is a relationship with God. And a relationship is not something that you just step in and out of like a pair of underwear. But just like you can't keep a relationship alive just by saying "i love you", neither can you keep your relationship with God alive with just faith. As James says, we are justified by our works, and not by faith alone. That was his answer to the topical question he posed at the beginning: "can faith save him?"

Think of the song, "More Than Words":
Saying I love you
Is not the words I want to hear from you
It's not that I want you
Not to say, but if you only knew
How easy it would be to show me how you feel
More than words is all you have to do to make it real
Then you wouldn't have to say that you love me
'Cause I'd already know

Just because you say you believe passively does not mean you will be saved. If your faith is dead, then you will not be saved. This is because salvation is not just forgiveness.
 
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PeaceByJesus

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The Lord Jesus established His claims upon Scriptural substantiation in word and in power, yet which means that as God, He was who He was regardless of whether men recognized Him as being so or not.

Likewise the Divine writings, but which became established as being so essentially due to their unique heavenly qualities and attestation. And writing is God's chosen form of preservation, ( Ex. 17:14; Ex. 127:14; Isaiah 30:8; cf. Job 19:23) And is the only substantive whooly inspired body of Truth for Christians.

And as is abundantly evidenced, as written, Scripture became the transcendent supreme standard for obedience and testing and establishing truth claims as the wholly Divinely inspired and assured, Word of God.

In contrast, oral tradition is unsubstantive, and by nature is supremely susceptible to undetectable corruption, but is selectively held to be the wholly inspired word of God and made into required belief as declared by the decrees of non-wholly inspired men.
 
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PeaceByJesus

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Influenced for sure, but the question is the supreme communicative basis for ascertaining the veracity of what is to be obeyed, that of wholly inspired Scripture, as with the noble, truth-loving Bereans, or the teaching of presumed veracity of religious leadership, as helpful as they can be?
 
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fhansen

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If there wasn't an unwritten body of knowledge/truths already held by the disciples-by the church-the Bereans would've had nothing to check Scripture against. IOW, they could not have discerned the gospel message on their own, with OT Scripture alone, even thought the OT held that message in shadow form. And we'd all agree that even at that time false gospels and doctrines were being spread so that the necessity for the true one, which the church could be unified around, was critical.
 
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Albion

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Then all bets are off. If we can't really be sure that any of the books of the bible really belong there, then we have no guarantee that any of them are actually God-breathed at all.
Strictly speaking, that's so. Nor can anyone "know" for a certainty that there's anyone else in the universe besides himself. As with other things in life, our acceptance of the books of the Bible as God's revealed word is based upon evidence, logic, and strong probabilities.

They identified the documents they recognised as being the ones handed on from the Apostles.
So far, no disagreement from this end.

I don't know why you'd assume that any book that wasn't actually sacred scripture was written by some "random schmo," just as there's no reason to think that the decision to accept certain books as revelation is "incontrovertibly true." Even the councils that made the decision on the canon were not absolutely sure of the Apocrypha, nor for that matter, were the Jews before them who were divided on the matter. And, as noted, there never has been one single canon accepted by the whole of the Christian world anyway.
 
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Paul of Eugene OR

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God has not stopped inspiring people and many, many books are written that clearly have inspiration from God in them. But we don't, any more, call them parts of the Bible.
 
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PeaceByJesus

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You reveal yourself as one who has no real argument to interact with what refutes you, but invokes texts which do no say what you need them to do, and here only apply to you, under your model for ascertaining what is of God.

Again, you claimed the Catholic wrote the Bible, not even just the NT, and thus you know the Bible is true. And by implication means that we need to look to Rome and her magisterium to know what is of God.

Which logically means that to be consistent, since Israel wrote, discerned and preserved the OT writings which the NT church validated its claims by, then assurance that these writings were true would be because Israel, under its magisterium which sat in the seat of Moses, held them to be of God.

And consistent with the RC claim that we should therefore submit to Rome as concerns what Scripture consists of and means, then 1st century souls should have submitted to the magisterium of Israel in order to know what is of God and what is not.

Which effectively nukes the church, including Hebrews and whatever else from the NT you suppose helps your case. And which thus makes you the Judaizer, not me.

For in contrast, contrary to the RC model for ascertaining what is of God, we see that being the corporate and instruments and magisterial stewards of Scripture - which Rome claims to be and Israel was - does not require or infer ensured veracity of office.

And instead of knowing the Bible is True because the assuredly infallble Roman church said it is, we are to ascertain the veracity of Truth claims upon the weight of Scriptural substantiation, which is how the church began.

That Peter was in Rome, Yes he was, and Rome is Called in code Babylon, 1 Peter 5:13
The word for "church" is actually not in the Greek, though that is likely rightly supplied, and the use of Babylon for Rome comes from later writings, yet while it is possible that this refers to the city of Rome, and perhaps that Peter was in Rome, yet it might also refer to body of Christians in the Roman Empire at large. T which date much later than the book of Revelation. Or that,

Babylon was the center from which the Asiatic dispersion whom Peter addresses was derived. Philo [The Embassy to Gaius, 36] and Josephus [Antiquities, 15.2.2; 23.12] inform us that Babylon contained a great many Jews in the apostolic age (whereas those at Rome were comparatively few, about eight thousand [Josephus, Antiquities, 17.11]); so it would naturally be visited by the apostle of the circumcision.

It was the headquarters of those whom he had so successfully addressed on Pentecost, Act_2:9, Jewish “Parthians ... dwellers in Mesopotamia” (the Parthians were then masters of Mesopotamian Babylon); these he ministered to in person. His other hearers, the Jewish “dwellers in Cappadocia, Pontus, Asia, Phrygia, Pamphylia,” he now ministers to by letter. (A Commentary on the Old and New Testaments by Robert Jamieson, A. R. Fausset and David Brown)


That is an absurd apologetic. So Paul has no problem mentioning endangering up to 32 acquaintances (Phebe Priscilla Aquila Epaenetus Mary Andronicus Junia Urbane Stachys Apelles Aristobulus Herodion Narcissus Tryphena Tryphosa Rufus Asyncritus Phlegon Hermas Patrobas Hermes Philologus Julia Nereus Olympas Timotheus Lucius Jason Sosipater Tertius Gaius Erastus Quartus).

Yet Paul never even refers to the alleged pope of Rome even by allusion. Also, since Paul was averse to building upon another man's foundation, it is unlikely Peter was the founder of the church at Rome.

In addition is history research such as,

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Catholic theologian and a Jesuit priest Francis Sullivan, in his work From Apostles to Bishops (New York: The Newman Press), examines possible mentions of “succession” from the first three centuries, and concludes from that study that,
[/FONT]
“[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]the episcopate [development of bishops] is a the fruit of a post New Testament development,”[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]and cannot concur with those [interacting with Jones] who see little reason to doubt the notion that there was a single bishop in Rome through the middle of the second century:[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Hence I stand with the majority of scholars who agree that one does not find evidence in the New Testament to support the theory that the apostles or their coworkers left [just] one person as “bishop” in charge of each local church...
As the reader will recall, I have expressed agreement with the consensus of scholars that available evidence indicates that the church of Rome was led by a college of presbyters, rather than a single bishop, for at least several decades of the second century... [/FONT] — [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Francis Sullivan, in his work From Apostles to Bishops , pp. 221,222,224[/FONT]
More, by God's grace.
 
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Albion

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God has not stopped inspiring people and many, many books are written that clearly have inspiration from God in them. But we don't, any more, call them parts of the Bible.
I guess you could call them "inspired" in some sense of the word, but we wouldn't call them divine revelation.
 
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JacksBratt

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Actually it is more like an adoption into a family than it is like a boyfriend/girlfriend. You are actually becoming a child in the family of God. Later we will be His bride. That type of relationship does, of course, need to be continually maintained, however, if you go astray, you are still part of the family and will partake in eternity.

neither can you keep your relationship with God alive with just faith. As James says, we are justified by our works, and not by faith alone. That was his answer to the topical question he posed at the beginning: "can faith save him?"

Can you show me that scripture. I find these:

"But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness." (Rom. 4:5).

"because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight . . . " (Rom. 3:20)

"for we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law." (Rom. 3:28)

"For what does the Scripture say? ‘And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.'" (Rom. 4:3)

"Therefore, having been justified by faith . . . " (Rom. 5:1)

Romans 3:27
Where then is boasting? It is excluded By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.

Galatians 2:21
"I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."

There are many others but I think you can see a common theme that it is our faith and faith alone that will determine our righteousness and seal our salvation. Works, in these examples are never held to be the characteristic of our lives by which we are justified.


 
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sculleywr

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Adoption doesn't end in marriage to the one that adopts you. And who said righteousness came through the Jewish law? Nobody. That's what Paul was talking of. Righteousness comes through obedience to God. And apparently you've never read James 2. It says plain and simple "a man is justified by his works, and not by faith alone." It is the ONLY time that faith alone is identified with a relationship to justification, and since justification is part of salvation, it means that salvation is more than forgiveness.

If it isn't, then salvation is a license to sin.
 
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PeaceByJesus

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God has not stopped inspiring people and many, many books are written that clearly have inspiration from God in them. But we don't, any more, call them parts of the Bible.

Really? So what public revelation today would you call wholly inspired of God, as Scripture is? If some is given, yet it would be subject to testing by Scripture, versus being declared to be equal with Scripture based upon the the novel and unScriptural premise of ensured perpetual magisterial infallibility as per Rome (and basically in primary cults).
 
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PeaceByJesus

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Certainly the word of God was being preached, but the point is that the veracity of which, and the validity of it being the formal word of God was subject to testing by the established word of God, the Scriptures.

And by oral tradition, we are not speaking or non-wholly inspired men declaring some teaching to be the (formal) word of God, but of speaking only wholly inspired words, often providing new public revelation, neither of which the church of Rome claims to do.

(I would add here that public revelation is in view here, and that it is only the wholly inspired word that is the formal word of God, versus simply preaching Scriptural truths, as the whole church did in Acts 8:4.)

In the beginning, the oral word of God was all there was of express Divine revelation, as God revealed His word personally to a very limited degree to a very limited amount of persons. Yet that was sufficient for what God required ("sola oral"), though it was not all that grace (or judgment) would provide.

However, when choosing to to reveal His word more comprehensively to an entire nation, then God provided revelation to Moses and had Him commit to writing, which is evidenced to be God's chosen means of preservation, (Ex. 17:14; 127:14; Isaiah 30:8; cf. Job 19:23) and which writing became the standard for obedience and testing Truth claims.

And note that while parts of Scripture record Divine revelation being spoken orally, yet (contrary to liberal ideas) the vast majority of Scripture is direct revelation, both in revealing what God directly said, or of historical events, or in inspired poetry, and letters to churches and individuals.

And as Divine revelation continued after the giving of the Law, additional writings were added to the existing body of Truth, and which led to the 27 books of the NT.

Yet neither the oral or written word of God yet it was not established as such by "infallible" magisterial decrees upon the (false) premise of their ensured veracity, but the word of God was established and held as such essentially due to their unique heavenly qualities and attestation, and then by its inclusion in manifestly wholly inspired writing. For the word of God is not simply true, but is wholly inspired and have unique power. (Heb. 4:12)

The issue today is that of the claim of an amorphous oral body of the word of God that is equal to Scripture, like the wholly inspired words in Scripture, as determined by the Catholic church.

However, unlike the wholly inspired preaching of the word of God which is confirmed as being so by its inclusion in wholly inspired Scripture, whose every words was inspired and sometimes provided new revelation, Catholic oral Tradition teachings are declared to be the wholly inspired word of God by non-inspired men.

And unlike Scriptural writings, with their conflative complementary books which, with few exceptions (and of little doctrinal consequence) see universal affirmation, teachings of Catholic oral Tradition see vast rejection, as they fail of Scriptural substantiation (even zero prayers to anyone in Heaven by God, despite approx. 200 prayers for this common practice).
 
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PeaceByJesus

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Your premise, like that of typical RC apologists, is that an infallible magisterial office is essential in order to assuredly know what is of God. And that as the instruments and stewards of Scripture, then the Roman magisterium is that infallible office, to whom all need to submit to.

Which means that the NT church had no established Divine writings to establish its claims by, and should have submitted to the magisterium of the historical instruments and stewards of Scripture, and inheritor of promises of God. (Rm. 3:2; 9:4)

But the fact is that the church began because souls could and did ascertain who and what was of God, even in dissent from the historical magisterial office.

It was such who demanded of a certain itinerant Preacher of Galilee where He obtained His authority, to which He invoked the authority of another itinerant preacher of Scriptural repentance. Against which these leaders could say nothing censorious, "for all counted John, that he was a prophet indeed." (Mk. 11:27-33)

But under the premise that an infallible magisterium is essential to know what is of God, then these souls could only hope John was a prophet indeed, as well as the One He testified to.
 
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PeaceByJesus

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Persuaded by ascertaining the validity of these claims by examination of the evidential warrant from them, which we are told by Catholics can not provide certainty or unity, or by faith in the Roman church?
 
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samir

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There is a big difference. When a Christian finds the truth in the church, he needs only be believe. When a Protestant believes he's found the truth in a book, he needs to spend years trying to figure out how to interpret book without ever having any way of knowing if his personal interpretations of book are correct.


It definitely doesn't start with your modern day interpretation of the NT.


Some of that is anti-catholic myths. If you want to know what catholics believe I recommend consulting catholic sources. Once you've done that, if you find a better church and can provide evidence it was the one church founded by Jesus I'm willing to listen.
 
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samir

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No, for there was no set, indisputable canon, only one that was generally accepted, but not universally then nor today.

I get that people disputed the canon but I don't see any changes made to it. Do you agree the 73 books in catholic bibles are the same 73 books in the canon of Carthage, Florence, and Trent and that the catholic church has never had a canon other than the 73 book canon it uses today?


If you have evidence the RCC ever doubted the canon it has used since the 4th century I'd like to hear it.


In the case of Trent and the canon, they took a vote and everyone, 100% of them, agreed with the 73 book canon.


I've heard those vote totals before. They came from a meaningless straw vote taken in the middle of the discussions of whether there should be an anathema for Protestants who don't accept the church's 73 book canon.


Whether those at the council had a disagreement over which topics to discuss isn't something that concerns me. What's important to me is the final vote on the canon of scripture and 100% voted in favor of it.
 
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Albion

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Persuaded by ascertaining the validity of these claims by examination of the evidential warrant from them, which we are told by Catholics can not provide certainty or unity, or by faith in the Roman church?
It wouldn't seem to be because of any careful examination of the history and the facts. I say that both because he would know better if he'd done that, but also because the posts and the claims are slogans that Catholics have been taught. If the positions taken were his own, I'm sure that he'd have used his own wording.
 
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fhansen

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And yet truth doesn't come by majority vote or affirmation. And while all Christians may affirm that Scriptural writings are God's Word, that in no way ensures that they will affirm each other's interpretations or understandings of those same writings. If I believe Scripture to be God's Word while misunderstanding what I've read, what does that say about my belief that Scripture is God's word to begin with? The church simply teaches what she heard from the beginning. Some affirm those teachings by their understanding of Scripture while others deny them, or affirm part of those teachings while denying others.
 
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Albion

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That's true, but the thread concerns Sola Scriptura which holds that Scripture is the ultimate authority. It is concerned with what we consult when deciding on essential doctrine. Sola Scriptura does not deal with the interpretations that any individual may make of Scripture.

The church simply teaches what she heard from the beginning.
That's not quite the way to put it. Your church teaches what is called Tradition--customs, opinions, etc.--which it says have stood the test of time. That's the point of Tradition, at least in theory...i.e. that it is what it is (a second revelation from God after the Bible) BECAUSE the belief, whatever it is, has been consistently held by the whole church during all that time.
 
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