Easiest Defense of Sola Scriptura

VanillaSunflowers said:

Great link there. Trent nuked quite a bit in Christ's teachings. But they would have to wouldn't they? In order to insure the Roman edifice took the place of God and Christ both.

Have you reviewed it lately? The current Pope made claims about unbelievers entering Heaven. How many of those Canon's listed in the Orange do you think he's violated to date making such claims?

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I have not been to any Pope Francis threads lately. I can imagine he is getting a lot of free advice from his flock on those threads.

Xalith said:

I never said not to use Scripture.

Where did I say that?

The only thing I said is that Scripture is not the only source of knowledge from God.

Scripture is the final say so -- if anything contradicts Scripture, then that thing is wrong, false, lie, etc. If it doesn't conflict Scripture, well... you gotta think about it.

But I've seen SS people who immediately discard everything that isn't in Scripture, even stuff that doesn't conflict with Scripture.

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Thank you for clarifying.

redleghunter said:

The difference between eisegesis and exegesis.

Here's the difference :

Error occurs when we try to make the Scriptures mean what we want them to mean.

As opposed to reading and studying them within their historical context and original audience.

Trying to use verses to directly support a church structure in the 5th century that did not exist in the 1st century is eisegesis.

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I merely pointed out that verses can be used to support opposing views-while also supporting early church practices. Are you asserting that anyone's attempt at "reading and studying them within their historical context and original audience"- which is certainly advisable while only partially attainable with current knowledge-guarantees a certain understanding of the gospel?

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redleghunter said:

Then I guess the Eastern Orthodox should not be condemned for holding to such.

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You guess wrong, You mostly don't know what Phylletism is

sculleywr said:

As I said and already answered, the forgiveness isn't given by the priest at Confession. Please read the link, or at least do a simple word search for the word "forgive" in it:
http://www.orthodox.net/services/evening-prayers.html

So like I said, your question is based on a false premise that we must be forgiven in the presence of the priest to really receive it. Certainly, it is necessary that we confess our sins one to another in obedience to the command of God, but it isn't because of forgiveness, but because God told us to. The priest only is there to bear witness to the forgiveness, which already happened if you are following any semblance of a standard prayer rule. Since the premise is a false premise, there is no need to answer your question.

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My question is not going to go away.......

What happens to you as you stand there in front of your Savior?

What is done about your unforgiven sins?

You cannot squirm out of this by saying that confession is not about forgiveness.

My question is due to you saying that the view about your car is right.

You have just died and have unforgiven sins....... What happens next.

Stop avoiding my question.

redleghunter said:

Then I guess the Eastern Orthodox should not be condemned for holding to such.

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I very much doubt that any EO member here would state that more than one Church was established by God.

redleghunter said:

The difference between eisegesis and exegesis.

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Exegesis : What we can read out of the text.
Eisegesis : What we can read into the text.

The old adage is to not use scripture as a drunk uses a lamppost : More for support rather than illumination.

JacksBratt said:

My question is not going to go away.......

What happens to you as you stand there in front of your Savior?

What is done about your unforgiven sins?

You cannot squirm out of this by saying that confession is not about forgiveness.

My question is due to you saying that the view about your car is right.

You have just died and have unforgiven sins....... What happens next.

Stop avoiding my question.

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You're asking a person who's going to Atlanta from Jacksonville how he plans to deal with the Miami traffic. I'm not going to deal with the Miami traffic because only a total idiot goes to Miami thinking it's on the way from Jax to Atlanta. It's a nonexistent problem because, as I said, making it big because you apparently do not know what it means:

Confession does not confer the forgiveness at the location of the priest!!!!!!

Get that piece of information in your head, and then you will understand why you are not even on the logical course of thought. Your question is a STRAWMAN! It has no relevance to confession because you're asking if water has hydrogen in it without someone observing the existence of the hydrogen in it.

fhansen said:

The concept that Scripture should be used as the sole source of revelation to serve as the rule for determining truths of the Christian faith.

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Actually more here:

http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/

Constantine the Sinner said:

Not really any more circular than, "the Bible is authoritative because the Bible says so."

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Alas that is not an argument here as far as I know. However Christ and His apostles attested to the authority of the written Scriptures.

The Holy Scriptures are authoritative because they contain the words and works of God. As Jesus Christ came in word, deed and power as did His apostles with the light they were given.

sculleywr said:

Just a few things that are common assumptions:

1. This does not mean that you can "sin away" your salvation. Even though our path of sanctification requires that we combat our sin, grace still abounds even more than our sins.
2. This does not mean that you must meet some kind of "quota" of good deeds to be saved.
3. This does not mean that you have to constantly worry "am I saved or am I not?" You don't ask that about the other relationships in your life. You know the status of your marriage the same way that you know the status of your relationship with Christ. It isn't something you will lose arbitrarily.

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I think we have the points above in common.

The other portion of your post we can discuss outside of this OP as it too interests me and we could go on for pages.

However, briefly, doctrines which address the state of a Christian's daily walk on that narrow path do not do justice to explaining God's sanctifying work in our lives.

You would not go to a confession or theological work to capture this. No, I would point to the tearful, soul piercing and joyful witness and prayers of those sharing their walk with Christ. Not the mind numbing post modern Osteen stuff but the substantive works of Wesley and Spurgeon. Also noting the wonderful homilies of the early church fathers.

fhansen said:

Well, in what I read of your exchange I saw nothing where the poster denied that Scripture is the written word of God. Maybe I missed it.

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Yes the claim was made and apparently retracted.

JacksBratt said:

You know what.....I have asked this question several times and it is never answered. It is always skipped over....

So I will ask it point blank. This whole idea of a Priest and confession etc is all good from the pulpit. The whole car analogy, the "you cannot be forgiven for sins you haven't committed"... works good at Sunday mass.. However....check this scenario out and let me know how it plays.

You are a Christian, believe in Christ, believe He is your savior, gave your life to Him and live every day in a closer relationship with Him. You have asked Him to forgive your sins and come into your life and fully accept His gift of salvation....

Now, you go to your priest and take confession. He admonishes you of all your sins, tells you to do some penance or whatever they do....

So, you leave the church after your confession. You are pure as the driven snow...

During the next week, as every human does, you sin. Pick some common sins.... tell a white lie, flip someone the bird and call them an A hole..... drink too much with the boys, covet your neighbors new sport car... what ever... on and on...

Now, on your way home from work on Friday... you as a sinner now... no more Mr. Clean... get in a head on collision with a cement truck and find yourself standing in front of your savior in heaven....You have not confessed your sins from the following week. Never made it to the Priest,

What is your dilemma? Are you damned? Did you lose your spot in heaven? Are you still saved? What now? Does Christ see you as a sinner and send you to hell?

Please. Feel free to answer what happens next. With no run around answers. It's pretty clear your in a pinch if what you say is true....

You give me your answer and I'll tell you mine.

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I think Roman Catholics would say off to purgatory you go.

The Eastern Orthodox don't agree with RCs on purgatory so I would gather their answer would be close to God is gracious and merciful.

redleghunter said:

I think we have the points above in common.

The other portion of your post we can discuss outside of this OP as it too interests me and we could go on for pages.

However, briefly, doctrines which address the state of a Christian's daily walk on that narrow path do not do justice to explaining God's sanctifying work in our lives.

You would not go to a confession or theological work to capture this. No, I would point to the tearful, soul piercing and joyful witness and prayers of those sharing their walk with Christ. Not the mind numbing post modern Osteen stuff but the substantive works of Wesley and Spurgeon. Also noting the wonderful homilies of the early church fathers.

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Going to receive the Sacraments is not for "capturing" sanctification. It is part of the tools God uses in sanctifying us.

If you like on the rest you can message me.

An Anglican Perspective
VI. Of the Sufficiency of the Holy Scriptures for Salvation.
Holy Scripture containeth all things necessary to salvation: so that whatsoever is not read therein, nor may be proved thereby, is not to be required of any man, that it should be believed as an article of the Faith, or be thought requisite or necessary to salvation. In the name of the Holy Scripture we do understand those canonical Books of the Old and New Testament, of whose authority was never any doubt in the Church.

Alonso_Castillo said:

Easy, Because the seven Churches mean all The Churches, seven means wholeness, the seven churches mentioned were representing the Church in plenitude, Jesus wants his Church to be pure and obedient to him, and prices the sacrifices that the church suffers, The seven churches mentined in the Apocalypse are in fact a mesage for the whole church.

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Is the above your opinion or can you point me to the infallible teachings?

sculleywr said:

Going to receive the Sacraments is not for "capturing" sanctification. It is part of the tools God uses in sanctifying us.

If you like on the rest you can message me.

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I'm sorry where did I imply capturing sanctification? Just asking for clarification.

fhansen said:

I merely pointed out that verses can be used to support opposing views-while also supporting early church practices. Are you asserting that anyone's attempt at "reading and studying them within their historical context and original audience"- which is certainly advisable while only partially attainable with current knowledge-guarantees a certain understanding of the gospel?

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The below may clarify :

There are some basic principles of good exegesis which serious students of the Bible will follow:

1. The Grammatical Principle. The Bible was written in human language, and language has a certain structure and follows certain rules. Therefore, we must interpret the Bible in a manner consistent with the basic rules of language.

Usually, the exegete starts his examination of a passage by defining the words in it. Definitions are basic to understanding the passage as a whole, and it is important that the words be defined according to their original intent and not according to modern usage. To ensure accuracy, the exegete uses a precise English translation and Greek and Hebrew dictionaries.

Next, the exegete examines the syntax, or the grammatical relationships of the words in the passage. He finds parallels, he determines which ideas are primary and which are subordinate, and he discovers actions, subjects, and their modifiers. He may even diagram a verse or two.

2. The Literal Principle. We assume that each word in a passage has a normal, literal meaning, unless there is good reason to view it as a figure of speech. The exegete does not go out of his way to spiritualize or allegorize. Words mean what words mean.

So, if the Bible mentions a “horse,” it means “a horse.” When the Bible speaks of the Promised Land, it means a literal land given to Israel and should not be interpreted as a reference to heaven.

3. The Historical Principle. As time passes, culture changes, points of view change, language changes. We must guard against interpreting scripture according to how our culture views things; we must always place scripture in its historical context.

The diligent Bible student will consider the geography, the customs, the current events, and even the politics of the time when a passage was written. An understanding of ancient Jewish culture can greatly aid an understanding of scripture. To do his research, the exegete will use Bible dictionaries, commentaries, and books on history.

4. The Synthesis Principle. The best interpreter of scripture is scripture itself. We must examine a passage in relation to its immediate context (the verses surrounding it), its wider context (the book it’s found in), and its complete context (the Bible as a whole). The Bible does not contradict itself. Any theological statement in one verse can and should be harmonized with theological statements in other parts of scripture. Good Bible interpretation relates any one passage to the total content of scripture.

5. The Practical Principle. Once we’ve properly examined the passage to understand its meaning, we have the responsibility to apply it to our own lives. To “rightly divide the word of truth” is more than an intellectual exercise; it is a life-changing event.

http://www.gotquestions.org/Biblical-exegesis.html

fhansen said:

I very much doubt that any EO member here would state that more than one Church was established by God.

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That is true and I've viewed statements here that the one true church is not headquartered in Rome.

Philip_B said:

Exegesis : What we can read out of the text.
Eisegesis : What we can read into the text.

The old adage is to not use scripture as a drunk uses a lamppost : More for support rather than illumination.

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Well said.