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Thirst_For_Knowledge

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This may be a dumb question, but it's late and I'm kind of wondering so...

If no being on earth can be without sin, what if a child is born and shortly dies? Hasn't this person lived on earth without sinning? Wouldn't this make him a perfect being?
 

Thirst_For_Knowledge

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Interesting ideas there. (I can't post in that forum, so the I'll have to debate here)

So it's thought that babies are sinners and won't enter heaven because they haven't accepted Jesus? That is what I gather from reading that. Perhaps some clarification?
 
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Matt Never Existed

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What most christians will say is that that child was born with 'Original Sin', and should be babtized asap after birth or soon after death. ~shrug~

I, personally, feel that a child is born without sin. Honestly, Sin is defined as "Deliberate disobedience to the known will of God". So I believe that a person's first sin is the one he makes on his own free will, with the thought "Should I be doing this? Isn't this wrong?" in his or her head. I also believe that that is the time he or she becomes accountable to god.
 
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Thirst_For_Knowledge

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Matt Never Existed said:
What most christians will say is that that child was born with 'Original Sin', and should be babtized asap after birth or soon after death. ~shrug~

I, personally, feel that a child is born without sin. Honestly, Sin is defined as "Deliberate disobedience to the known will of God". So I believe that a person's first sin is the one he makes on his own free will, with the thought "Should I be doing this? Isn't this wrong?" in his or her head. I also believe that that is the time he or she becomes accountable to god.

That's what I would think, as well.
 
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Thirst_For_Knowledge

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Matt Never Existed said:
Honestly, what kind of God would deny heaven and eternal happiness to children who had no chance to live a good or bad life?

~shrug~ I would like to believe that god is good, and as such, accepts all children, regardless of babtism and whatnot, into heaven.

If God is loving and just, I would think that that would be the only option.

Of course, there's the argument that without knowing Jesus, a baby can't be let into heaven, but certainly God could make exceptions, and I would thing that this would be one of the best exceptions he could make.
 
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ptgd1st

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I disagree with the most christians comment. Most of the ones I know and me included believe that it is the parents repsonsibility until the child is capable of understanding. Meaning, if the child died right after he or she was borned that they would be going to heaven. There is an age where the responsibility of ones salvation becomes ones own. Until that day it is the parents responsibility to instill the proper tenets. As a baby you cannot understand the fundamentals of Heaven and hell, or God and satan. As for the age of understanding, that is up for debate and I am of the mind that it is not universal.
 
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ChristianCenturion

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thirstforknowledge said:
If God is loving and just, I would think that that would be the only option.

Of course, there's the argument that without knowing Jesus, a baby can't be let into heaven, but certainly God could make exceptions, and I would thing that this would be one of the best exceptions he could make.
I do not see this as a true statement.
All of the doctrine must be taken into context if you are to make a declaration addressing this. And this view stated is ignoring other scripture in order to stand.
The children might not have chosen to believe upon Jesus Christ, they are born into a fallen world and born into original sin, they may not know right from wrong, etc... these may all be correct, but the scripture does not summarily assign these children to suffering or oblivion; they will be Judged, as we all will be Judged.
And I, loving and trusting in a Perfect God, have no problems with any of His judgments or ways. Whatever the outcome would be for the child, it doesn't take God by surprise.
 
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DailyBlessings

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At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure. All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows who the Son is except the Father, and no one knows who the Father is except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him."

and


And he said: “I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.And whoever welcomes a little child like this in my name welcomes me."
It seems to me that the Lord doesn't consider children to be without faith in the first place, but rather that they have a pure faith unsullied yet by the world. He certainly doesn't sound as though He thinks they ought to go to hell.
 
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InspiredHome

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I came across a web site today and one of the things I read addressed this very question. You'll find it here. http://www.biblebell.org/accountability.html
It's a pretty interesting read and something I've never really thought through.
He makes a compelling case. :)
 
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Thirst_For_Knowledge

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InspiredHome said:
I came across a web site today and one of the things I read addressed this very question. You'll find it here. http://www.biblebell.org/accountability.html
It's a pretty interesting read and something I've never really thought through.
He makes a compelling case. :)

Interesting. Thanks for the link.
 
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Marilyn

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Interesting topic..

I am no christian, but i just stumbble across this site.
but any ways.

our Sin System is different to your,,

But the newborn has not had the chance to sin in any way..

Here is our System of sins
1. Stupidity—The top of the list for Satanic Sins. The Cardinal Sin of Satanism. It’s too bad that stupidity isn’t painful. Ignorance is one thing, but our society thrives increasingly on stupidity. It depends on people going along with whatever they are told. The media promotes a cultivated stupidity as a posture that is not only acceptable but laudable. Satanists must learn to see through the tricks and cannot afford to be stupid.

2. Pretentiousness—Empty posturing can be most irritating and isn’t applying the cardinal rules of Lesser Magic. On equal footing with stupidity for what keeps the money in circulation these days. Everyone’s made to feel like a big shot, whether they can come up with the goods or not.

3. Solipsism—Can be very dangerous for Satanists. Projecting your reactions, responses and sensibilities onto someone who is probably far less attuned than you are. It is the mistake of expecting people to give you the same consideration, courtesy and respect that you naturally give them. They won’t. Instead, Satanists must strive to apply the dictum of “Do unto others as they do unto you.” It’s work for most of us and requires constant vigilance lest you slip into a comfortable illusion of everyone being like you. As has been said, certain utopias would be ideal in a nation of philosophers, but unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately, from a Machiavellian standpoint) we are far from that point.

4. Self-deceit—It’s in the “Nine Satanic Statements” but deserves to be repeated here. Another cardinal sin. We must not pay homage to any of the sacred cows presented to us, including the roles we are expected to play ourselves. The only time self-deceit should be entered into is when it’s fun, and with awareness. But then, it’s not self-deceit!

5. Herd Conformity—That’s obvious from a Satanic stance. It’s all right to conform to a person’s wishes, if it ultimately benefits you. But only fools follow along with the herd, letting an impersonal entity dictate to you. The key is to choose a master wisely instead of being enslaved by the whims of the many.

6. Lack of Perspective—Again, this one can lead to a lot of pain for a Satanist. You must never lose sight of who and what you are, and what a threat you can be, by your very existence. We are making history right now, every day. Always keep the wider historical and social picture in mind. That is an important key to both Lesser and Greater Magic. See the patterns and fit things together as you want the pieces to fall into place. Do not be swayed by herd constraints—know that you are working on another level entirely from the rest of the world.

7. Forgetfulness of Past Orthodoxies—Be aware that this is one of the keys to brainwashing people into accepting something new and different, when in reality it’s something that was once widely accepted but is now presented in a new package. We are expected to rave about the genius of the creator and forget the original. This makes for a disposable society.

8. Counterproductive Pride—That first word is important. Pride is great up to the point you begin to throw out the baby with the bathwater. The rule of Satanism is: if it works for you, great. When it stops working for you, when you’ve painted yourself into a corner and the only way out is to say, I’m sorry, I made a mistake, I wish we could compromise somehow, then do it.

9. Lack of Aesthetics—This is the physical application of the Balance Factor. Aesthetics is important in Lesser Magic and should be cultivated. It is obvious that no one can collect any money off classical standards of beauty and form most of the time so they are discouraged in a consumer society, but an eye for beauty, for balance, is an essential Satanic tool and must be applied for greatest magical effectiveness. It’s not what’s supposed to be pleasing—it’s what is. Aesthetics is a personal thing, reflective of one’s own nature, but there are universally pleasing and harmonious configurations that should not be denied.
 
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ahman

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haven't read all this, but i think you have to remember that we are all sinners, and we all get to heaven, one way or another, through Jesus.

because i accept Jesus, it does not erase my tendancy to sin, just he forgives them and i soldier on.
why would Jesus not forgive babies?
surely he would only condemn someone with the ability to choose between Jesus and something else, who has chosen something else. why would he not forgive everything else? he is loving isn't he?
 
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Marilyn

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when u are born u will not even know any religion system.

u get programmed into a religion as u grow up.

so if you would not know any thing like a so called heaven, what now?

to say you believe in that guy called jesus, is your own opinion to do so.

this is an odd topic, i will agree, but no one actually knows what happens after you die, and to say you will rise above to some clouds is just to easy.
 
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Thirst_For_Knowledge

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This topic brings another question to my mind. Everyone has said that you are born into sin. That, because we are born into sin we are all sinners, even before we sin. This doesn't make any sense in my head.

Are we all murderers, even if we never murder someone? Does the ability to do something mean that we are the people that do that thing?

Are we all rapists?

I really don't get it.
 
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