Dual Moshiach

insaneinthebrain · Dec 2, 2004

simchat_torah said:
I have yet to search out of the use of Moshiach ben Ephrayim is supposed to be literal or symbollic. I tend to think of it as imagery of the Messiah OF or FOR Ephrayim, but we shall see... I'll return with my study later

Is it "later" yet?

simchat_torah · Jan 15, 2009

Well, as previously mentioned, I attend a synagouge, and yes... I attend the Parsha study on Shabbat. I don't necessarily have a rabbinical mentor, I do a lot of study on my own. However, I am very close with my synagogue and Judaism has been a large part of my life.

To those who don't know me, an update would be in order. A couple of years after this thread, I fully converted to Judaism. Though my family long ago turned their back on the calling of the Torah (my grandparents converted to christianity after escaping Poland during WWII) I have picked back up the calling and now carry the torch. Yes, I did study quite extensively with a Rabbi, went through formal conversion with a bris, mikvah, and stood before a beit din. No, I do not entertain Messianic ideas anymore.

Anyway, I just thought I'd clarify that though this thead was created when I was deep inside the Messianic movement, my answers today will not reflect the same view I had back then.

Shalom,
Yafet

stone · Jan 15, 2009

I'm trying to follow along, i'm reading on post 4 now, I'm curious of the concept because i've heard of it often over the last couple years and don't really know much about where it comes from or really much of anything about it. I've been trying to keep my distance from these types of teachings till i'm comfortable to study it, which i am now.

Do you think that this concept could have come from the fact that there were two kingdoms? The north and the south?

johnd · Jan 15, 2009

Job 9:33 Neither is there {in Job's day} any daysman betwixt us, that might lay his hand upon us both.

Job 19:23 Oh that my words were now written! oh that they were printed in a book!
24 That they were graven with an iron pen and lead in the rock for ever!
25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

Isaiah 26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.

Meshavrischika · Jan 15, 2009

I find it really bizarre that you posted this Simchat... don't know why, I just do.

What (in a nutshell) do you subscribe to now?

Eben Abram · Jan 15, 2009

HalcyonFire said:
I find it really bizarre that you posted this Simchat... don't know why, I just do.

What (in a nutshell) do you subscribe to now?

Hey!! a poster after my own heart....be careful, some of the posters are calling me a Necro poster for finding old posts and first reading them, then commenting on them as if this were a forum for reading and commenting

Silly me

I like your moniker on common sense, I like to add Uncommon Sensibilities..........LOL

Eben

Meshavrischika · Jan 15, 2009

I totally buy the dual messiah thing myself.... but that's just me. I find most protestant christians don't even KNOW about the concept.... I find this, for me, explains the conviction I have that the Jews are STILL and WILL ALWAYS be God's people even though they do not accept Yeshua as Messiah at this time. But... that's just me.

Eben Abram · Jan 15, 2009

HalcyonFire said:
I totally buy the dual messiah thing myself.... but that's just me. I find most protestant christians don't even KNOW about the concept.... I find this, for me, explains the conviction I have that the Jews are STILL and WILL ALWAYS be God's people even though they do not accept Yeshua as Messiah at this time. But... that's just me.

Shalom ALecheim

I don't.

Messiah who came was predicted and expected by some sages in Judaism when he came, those records, harder to find, were existent up till 1800's and I am sure are still floating around somewhere,

Moshiach who comes as Returning King ALSO was foretold and frankly discussed by Jews in Judaism speculating that either he would likely be two messiah, or ONE in two seperate time frames.

These were mystical thoughts and later discarded by Judaism with the Rise of rabbinical dominance and the prevalent "christian" world view coming into dominance, but frankly it was already discussed.

The Two Seperate Messiah's in Judaism was rejected by the majority of opinion for frankly scriptural reasons we could debate and reach the same conclusion, but, it's already been done several times.

After temple was destroyed, the restoration of the Suffering servant and Messiahnism returned with the rebirth of mysticism in Judaism thru Chassidism.

It is almost unheard of to find a Jew accepting a Two Messiah dogma and frankly only started recently with the Messianic Movement and ONLY after a large influx of SDA and Mormons and Hebraic groups started adopting the Messianic Movement as thier own.

Like the Two House heresy, it won't be long, if not already done, where the larger groups of MJAA and IAMC will declare the TWO Messiah concept also a heresy.

Now as to One person returning, as I said, Jews had aready discussed this and while some did not accept messiah who came, two ot three thousand jewish beleivers plus or minus in the first and second century documented as dying for thier faith IN MESSIAH, I would say some knew WHO would come again as He left.

Eben

stone · Jan 15, 2009

I think that perhaps the concept of two messiahs may be compared to Revelations, in that there will be two prophets?

And isn't there something that is suppose to go down, before the two prophets, that was sealed, so not to reveal any of that prophecy to the world?

Meshavrischika · Jan 15, 2009

I dont believe there ARE two seperate messiahs, you misunderstand me... I think the concept gives rise to the explanation of what will happen.

simchat_torah · Jan 15, 2009

Do you think that this concept could have come from the fact that there were two kingdoms? The north and the south?

Nah, it has to do with many seemingly conflicting Tenach passages regarding Messianic prophecies.

simchat_torah · Jan 15, 2009

What (in a nutshell) do you subscribe to now?

I no longer follow MJ'ism. I fully converted to Judaism a few years ago.

Eben Abram · Jan 15, 2009

HalcyonFire said:
I dont believe there ARE two seperate messiahs, you misunderstand me... I think the concept gives rise to the explanation of what will happen.

Shalom ALecheim,

I know the expression TOO MUCH INFORMATION, but can we have a TLI for too little?

Or as I would normally say: Huh?

Eben

Eben Abram · Jan 15, 2009

simchat_torah said:
Nah, it has to do with many seemingly conflicting Tenach passages regarding Messianic prophecies.

True. Messianic discussion is really a wide and varied discussion of opposing opinions in Judaism and to be certain, what once might have made sense in ancient christendom, really gets convoluted today with sometimes.........

Too Much Information and not enoigh thinking it through.

I agree thought with Simchat's post.

Eben

Eben Abram · Jan 15, 2009

simchat_torah said:
I no longer follow MJ'ism. I fully converted to Judaism a few years ago.

Born a jew and converted?
Or
Born a non-jew and converted?

Just curious, no motive, I knew a rather remarkable Jew named Simchat Torah a long long long time ago.

Eben Abram

simchat_torah · Jan 16, 2009

Born a jew and converted?
Or
Born a non-jew and converted?

On my mother's side, my grandparents came to the US when very young, escaping from Poland during WWII. However, finding antisemitism here in the states my grandparents then converted to christianity. Thus I was raised in a Christian home... which meant I was not allowed to do Baal Teshuvah (a repentant Jew who returns to Judaism) but instead took up charge to full conversion. My paternal family name is also Jewish, but this is meaningless when Jewish lineage is concerned for Teshuvah.

As well, my wife has Jewish bloodlines back yonder from Greece and Russia, but she too was raised Christian (and the Jewish heritage was from her father's side... one must show direct lineage of Jewish heritage from the mother's side, not father's). We both underwent full conversion a few years back.

Just curious, no motive, I knew a rather remarkable Jew named Simchat Torah a long long long time ago.

Yup, that's me. I remember you too Eben Abram.

Meshavrischika · Jan 16, 2009

simchat_torah said:
I no longer follow MJ'ism. I fully converted to Judaism a few years ago.

I know THAT silly... what I mean is about the Messiah... one or two?

Meshavrischika · Jan 16, 2009

Eben Abram said:
Shalom ALecheim,

I know the expression TOO MUCH INFORMATION, but can we have a TLI for too little?

Or as I would normally say: Huh?

Eben

The concept that there would be two messiahs, the idea of the conquering king, and suffering servant explains alot, in my mind, of how things will happen and how we will all be brought together under the ONE messiah come twice.

Eben Abram · Jan 16, 2009

simchat_torah said:
On my mother's side, my grandparents came to the US when very young, escaping from Poland during WWII. However, finding antisemitism here in the states my grandparents then converted to christianity. Thus I was raised in a Christian home... which meant I was not allowed to do Baal Teshuvah (a repentant Jew who returns to Judaism) but instead took up charge to full conversion. My paternal family name is also Jewish, but this is meaningless when Jewish lineage is concerned for Teshuvah.

As well, my wife has Jewish bloodlines back yonder from Greece and Russia, but she too was raised Christian (and the Jewish heritage was from her father's side... one must show direct lineage of Jewish heritage from the mother's side, not father's). We both underwent full conversion a few years back.

Yup, that's me. I remember you too Eben Abram.

Shalom Alecheim

May it be, that between you and me, though we may disagree on Messiah, and whether you know it or not, I am always supportive of your choice as you follow your heart.

With all that has occurred in your life, I have no doubt, nor do i try try to understand it, but I know for a fact G-d is with you.

Likely you won't get that from other posters or Beleivers, but with no other reason than I read your posts back then, I am glad, honored, and support your decision.

You are where G-d wants you to be, and I am happy for your marriage and pray it bless you with children as well as ties that bind you to each other which cannot be broken.

Simchat Torah is legendary, and there is no doubt in my mind, as sound as I am in my choice and direction from Ha shem, that you are meant to be doing as you you are.

I say this with no allusion as to agreement, for I know your old posts well, but I say this with confidence, that for Truth of Judaism and Joy in the jewel of what our people have done, my list includes you on the Web.

Be well, and do not change. Be of your community and be the family you were meant to have.

I have no doubt someday, we will meet, share a glass of wine and perhaps some bread and look back at these times as history as we enjoy what the future brought us and we tell another generation our story.

Again, though we disagree, you are appreciated.

till Messiah come,
I have lots of friends,
many acquaintances and posters
I do not expect to agree till he come.

# of course, when I do make these posts like this one, I get another round of HOW DARE I from those who occasionally agree with me, till I say something like the above, lol.

Such a deal, but a jew is a Jew and until He come,
we have not seen all G-d will do.

Alecheim Shalom

Eben Abram

Eben Abram · Jan 16, 2009

Posted by simchat_torah on 04-03-2001 6:58 PM Frankly, I quite enjoyed the first post.

Shalom,
J.

------------------
Baruch atah Adonai Eloheinu Melech Ha'Olam

"Those who love Torah find great peace, and nothing can make them stumble." Tehillim 119:165

From a really old file, lol.

May it be you continue on in the Web as you are today, for who you are and how you are.

Be well Simchat_Torah, age is a wonderful place to be in.

Eben

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