Dual Covenant Theology

[Oye11]

Could someone explain to me what this is? I have studied it some, believe the claim involves the belief that Jews can be saved through their own belief system and do not need to come to Christ. Is this an inherent teaching in Dispensationalism? Thanks.

 

[Montanaman]

I personally believe that if they can pat their heads, rub their tummies and hop up and down at the same time, God will be so impressed he'll let them in.

So far the bishops have ignored my request to make this ecumenical doctrine canon law...

 

[JTM3]

Could someone explain to me what this is? I have studied it some, believe the claim involves the belief that Jews can be saved through their own belief system and do not need to come to Christ. Is this an inherent teaching in Dispensationalism? Thanks.

It's a bogus twisted accusation by the heresy hunters.

I think it comes from what the heresy hunters perceive.

What John Hagee has said is that the vast majority of the Jews won't be saved until Jesus comes back and reveals himself as Joseph revealed himself to his brothers.

Sure, I believe Jews have to have Christ to be saved, now, but because of the BLINDNESS that is on them that Paul speaks about, the VAST majority of them WON'T be saved until Jesus comes back and reveals himself to them.

That's the gist of it, I think, I haven't studied up on it 'cause I frankly don't give a crap about what the heresy hunters have to say.

They're nothing but hate mongers.

I personally believe that if they can pat their heads, rub their tummies and hop up and down at the same time, God will be so impressed he'll let them in.

So far the bishops have ignored my request to make this ecumenical doctrine canon law...

Really? That's a bummer

 

[Oye11]

What John Hagee has said is that the vast majority of the Jews won't be saved until Jesus comes back and reveals himself as Joseph revealed himself to his brothers.

Okay, would you allege that these are misquotes?

The Houston Chronicle article further reported:

“John Hagee, fundamentalist pastor from San Antonio and friend of Israel, is truly a strange fish. ... The man has a mission. He’s out to attack anti-Semitism. He also believes that Jews can come to God without going through Jesus Christ.”10
​

The Houston newspaper then quoted Hagee’s own shocking words: “I’m not trying to convert the Jewish people to the Christian faith.”
And further revealed:

“In fact, trying to convert Jews is a ‘waste of time,’ he said. ‘The Jewish person who has his roots in Judaism is not going to convert to Christianity. There is no form of Christian evangelism that has failed so miserably as evangelizing the Jewish people. They (already) have a faith structure.’ Everyone else, whether Buddhist or Baha’i, needs to believe in Jesus, he says. But not Jews. Jews already have a covenant with God that has never been replaced by Christianity, he says.”11

http://www.pfo.org/jonhagee.htm
​

 

[JTM3]

Okay, would you allege that these are misquotes?

The Houston Chronicle article further reported:

“John Hagee, fundamentalist pastor from San Antonio and friend of Israel, is truly a strange fish. ... The man has a mission. He’s out to attack anti-Semitism. He also believes that Jews can come to God without going through Jesus Christ.”10

Yeah, REAL objective

​

The Houston newspaper then quoted Hagee’s own shocking words: “I’m not trying to convert the Jewish people to the Christian faith.”
And further revealed:

“In fact, trying to convert Jews is a ‘waste of time,’ he said. ‘The Jewish person who has his roots in Judaism is not going to convert to Christianity. There is no form of Christian evangelism that has failed so miserably as evangelizing the Jewish people. They (already) have a faith structure.’ Everyone else, whether Buddhist or Baha’i, needs to believe in Jesus, he says. But not Jews. Jews already have a covenant with God that has never been replaced by Christianity, he says.”11

http://www.pfo.org/jonhagee.htm
​

You're quoting an article. Not the man himself.

I haven't seen those statements in context so that articles nothing more than a farce.

 

[Oye11]

Okay, would you allege that these are misquotes?

The Houston Chronicle article further reported:

Yeah, REAL objective .​

You aren`t coming across so "objective" yourself...

You're quoting an article. Not the man himself.

I haven't seen those statements in context so that articles nothing more than a farce.

Actually, if you take time to go to the endnotes you`ll see that these were quotes from Hagee as represented by the Houston Chronicle. A "farse"? Why so defensive? You sound kinda like John... ​

 

[GraceInHim]

Sorry, this OP is about Covenant Theology.. moving it to this forum and will leave a re-direct so you can continue this discussion.

Peace

 

[heymikey80]

Could someone explain to me what this is? I have studied it some, believe the claim involves the belief that Jews can be saved through their own belief system and do not need to come to Christ. Is this an inherent teaching in Dispensationalism? Thanks.

=chuckle= Well, it's not an aspect of Covenant Theology. Hagee isn't a Covenant theologian. Hagee is a word-faith movement guy. I wonder where this was originally posted, too.

In any event, Covenant Theology concludes on only one Covenant by which all people are saved -- that Covenant of salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ as your Lord.

On to dispensationalism forum, or is there a word-faith forum as well? It might belong better in there.

 

[Oye11]

=chuckle= Well, it's not an aspect of Covenant Theology. Hagee isn't a Covenant theologian. Hagee is a word-faith movement guy. I wonder where this was originally posted, too.

In any event, Covenant Theology concludes on only one Covenant by which all people are saved -- that Covenant of salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ as your Lord.

On to dispensationalism forum, or is there a word-faith forum as well? It might belong better in there.

I don`t know, but in a previous post here I posted the link to the site where I found the Hagee quotes that were referenced to the Houston Chronicle. Perhaps "Dual Covenant Theology" is a counter pegorative for "Replacement Theology"....;-)

 

[heymikey80]

I don`t know, but in a previous post here I posted the link to the site where I found the Hagee quotes that were referenced to the Houston Chronicle. Perhaps "Dual Covenant Theology" is a counter pegorative for "Replacement Theology"....;-)

Well, the only way you can have one covenant replace another is ta have two covenants. But I expect Paul intends something by:

What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness
did not succeed in reaching that law. Rom 9:30-31​

 

[stranger]

I have never in my life seen so much hot air about a subject which everyone here seems to be wrong about in relation to what scripture actually says :-

Hebrews 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a NEW covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

So why does no-one here seem to understand, let me ask some questions about this passage which illustrate that no-one so far is understanding what God has said here

---WHO is the new covenant with according to God ?

LOOK at Heb 8:8 above to see the TRUE answer

---Are there ANY conditions in this NEW covenant, as there were in the old covenant

Read the whole thing above, there are NO CONDITTIONS on the Jews [House of Judah] nor on the lost paganised House of Israel who have ben living as GENTILES amongst the gentiles, worshipping pagan gods, for millenia... they are BOTH unconditionally taken as the people of God and God WILL be their God ... and He doesn't say for ANYONE ELSE here...check it out and weep for the stories sinners have made up about this new covennat and misled billions of people...

---WHO is FORGIVEN unconditionally

LOOK at Heb 8:8 above to see what God says

 

[theFijian]

Are Cov Theology folks allowed to troll the Dispy forum too?

 

[heymikey80]

I have never in my life seen so much hot air about a subject which everyone here seems to be wrong about in relation to what scripture actually says :-

In the same way also he took the cup, after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me." For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes. 1 Cor 11:25-26

has made us competent to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. 2 Cor 3:6

Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia; she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. Gal 4:24-26​

 

[heymikey80]

Are Cov Theology folks allowed to troll the Dispy forum too?

I think so, for discussion on the subject of dispensations. I don't know how far they allow contrariness, though, and frankly I don't think it does any more good over there than over here.

 

[stranger]

Are Cov Theology folks allowed to troll the Dispy forum too?

You forget my friend that there are no distinctions between folks as far as God is concerned ... why not discuss the truth of scripture instead of putting up walls to the truth?

 

[stranger]

In the same way also he took the cup, after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me." For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes. 1 Cor 11:25-26
has made us competent to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. 2 Cor 3:6

You forget my friend that Jesus said that only the few find the narrow way [in this earth] , God needs but 144,000 as minsters , that is about 200,alive at any one time in the whole earth who have baptism of the spirit and so come to know ALL TRUTH of God ...

So clearly one is not equipped to minister unless one knows all the truth to be able to give it [and to be able to defeat Satan's wily temptations and so stop sinning ... for a single sin is enough to separate a man from God, and only past sins can be forgiven, so one is not one of the FEW , the saints, if one dies a sinner ...

So you need to look at who is baptised now and who is baptised after the second resurrection [since God has promised to baptise all men, but many died withou knowing all truth already ,as sinners]

Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia; she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. Gal 4:24-26

Why not read what God says instead, BOTH the TWO covenants are with ONLY Israel, the first with undivided Israel, the second with the TWO Houses into which Israel was divided, the House of Judah [Jews] and the lost paganised House of Isralel [scattered amongst the gentiles for millenia and never accepting Judaism, never beconing Jews even after they lost their lands ]

BOTH covenant sare with Israel, and no-one else , God says it through paul and through Jeremiah , read it[ Hebrews 8:3-13, Jer 31:31-34 ]

 

[heymikey80]

As to the first, the Scriptures speak for themselves how much anyone has to know.

As to the second, Paul is addressing Gentiles. Galatians. The covenant isn't cross-connected to Jewish believers here. The covenant is with Gentiles.

 

[stranger]

As to the first, the Scriptures speak for themselves how much anyone has to know.

As to the second, Paul is addressing Gentiles. Galatians. The covenant isn't cross-connected to Jewish believers here. The covenant is with Gentiles.

Paul is addressing the [non-Jewish] saints of the House of Israel in particular, and the gentiles in a more general way, because the NEW covenant is expressly the forgiveness of the House of Israel, but that is good news to all men because the saints fo this earth will minister to the many of all nations resurrected in the new earth, so many will be saved who were sinners, not saints, in this life... but the many saved will be saints in the new earth... one cannot be transalted to spirit [redeemed] unless on is perfected in love in trial during life...

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

 

[GLJCA]

Paul is addressing the [non-Jewish] saints of the House of Israel in particular, and the gentiles in a more general way, because the NEW covenant is expressly the forgiveness of the House of Israel, but that is good news to all men because the saints fo this earth will minister to the many of all nations resurrected in the new earth, so many will be saved who were sinners, not saints, in this life... but the many saved will be saints in the new earth... one cannot be transalted to spirit [redeemed] unless on is perfected in love in trial during life...

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

It is definitely something we are to strive for but the truth is not in the person who says that he has become sinless or can become sinless. That person is definitely deceived.
1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1 John 1:9 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

GLJCA

 

[billwald]

"In any event, Covenant Theology concludes on only one Covenant by which all people are saved -- that Covenant of salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ as your Lord."

OK, but there is no objective test for salvation i.e. for election. God can save anyone "in" Christ Jesus but not necessarially everyone. in an OPC or Reformed congregation.