Drinking? Is It ok?

ebia · Sep 3, 2005

grace789 said:
No, that is incorrect. Do some reading on it... it's an interesting subject.

I have done some reading up on it. Understanding the production of alcohol - beer in particular, but also wines, spirits, cider, etc, has been my major hobby for the last 15 years or more. My close friends include professional brewers, professional cidermakers, professional winemakers, professional grape growers (for table, sultana and wine). I live in the middle of the biggest grape growing area in Australia by tonnage.

The only information I've seen trying to explain how the wine described in the bible can be grape juice have been, like the one linked to above, complete rubbish.

And we were talking about non-alcoholic product of the vine that was being preserved. As I said, there were a number of ways.

Go on then - tell us how.

They were not dumb, just because they lived in a different time.

It's not a question of being dumb - there is exactly one easy and effective way of preserving grape juice - fermentation. Anything else requires "modern" knowledge of microbiology and/or modern technology. Stuff they didn't have.

People have gone to great lengths for thousands of years in order TO produce alchohol, not to avoid producing it.

The challenge stands to produce evidence of:
1. A viable preservation technique used to preserve grape juice by the hebrews.
2. Evidence that the greek word translated wine ever means anything except fermented wine, (or grape juice that is about to ferment).

That should not be hard to do if true.

ebia · Sep 3, 2005

Can you imagine the reaction if the wine Jesus made had been non-alcoholic?

The party is in full swing, everyone's getting a bit tipsy, but the rumour starts to circulate that the booze has run out. The host is getting more and more flustered. Then the stewards appear saying that Jesus has created some more wine, and start pouring it out for the guests. The reaction when they realise it's non-alcoholic would not be pretty, the host would be even more embarrised than he already was, ...

grace789 · Sep 3, 2005

ebia said:
Can you imagine the reaction if the wine Jesus made had been non-alcoholic?

The party is in full swing, everyone's getting a bit tipsy, but the rumour starts to circulate that the booze has run out. The host is getting more and more flustered. Then the stewards appear saying that Jesus has created some more wine, and start pouring it out for the guests. The reaction when they realise it's non-alcoholic would not be pretty, the host would be even more embarrised than he already was, ...

If you actually think that Jesus gave 'tipsy' people 150 gallons MORE alcoholic drink... then, i'm sorry, I think that's an absurd thing to think about a sinless man. Someone who would not go against his own word. But if you think he would, then... well, you're entitled to think that.

ebia · Sep 3, 2005

grace789 said:
If you actually think that Jesus gave 'tipsy' people 150 gallons MORE alcoholic drink... then, i'm sorry, I think that's an absurd thing to think about a sinless man. Someone who would not go against his own word. But if you think he would, then... well, you're entitled to think that.

Well, that's what John said he did, so unless you can provide some evidence to back up your assertions, that's what I'll have to assume is what happened.

stray bullet · Sep 3, 2005

grace789 said:
No, that is incorrect. Do some reading on it... it's an interesting subject. And we were talking about non-alcoholic product of the vine that was being preserved. As I said, there were a number of ways. They were not dumb, just because they lived in a different time.

Firstly, while they were not dumb, they were not even aware there was such a thing as yeast. In fact, the German Purity Law from the 16th Century (which basically stated that beer is water, malt and hops and no more) didn't even mention yeast in beer. They had to change the law once it was discovered as an ingredient.

Pasteurization was invented on in modern times with the discovery of micro-organisms. While one can speculate all day about possible means of preservation they could have employed in the ancient world, the fact remains, it wasn't used. Even if they knew about ways of preserving grape juice, they wouldn't risk the chance of a bad yeast developing, which would ruin an entire years supply. No one in the past was going to risk a year's work when they had a time-tested means of making a product from the juice.

I'ddie4him · Sep 5, 2005

FadingWhispers3 said:
But Is it really good for a christian to be drinking

In moderate ammounts, there seems to be certain health benefits. Although it is debatable whether some other food or supplement could not also give those same benefits.

For a chrisitian to drink per say is neither good nor evil.

"Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink... Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: 'Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!'... Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence." Colosssians 2:16

However,

"Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit." Ephesians 5:18

"So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God. Do not cause anyone to stumble, whether Jews, Greeks or the church of God" 1 Corinthians 10:31

Refraining from drinking is only meaningful if someone chooses this for themselves after deliberation. If someone does not drink because other people coerce them, of what value is that?

Drinking to the point of debauchery is surely bad. Drinking to the point of physical harm hurts the temple of God. Drinking where inconsiderate of others who take offense is a poor witness. Drinking for those weak of faith may cause others to stumble. Drinking causes some people to behave violently.

However... drink itself is neither good nor evil.

I agree with this post to a point. Drinking in moderation is not a bad thing. But, When it leads to abuse and one becomes an alcoholic from it, Then it is a bad thing.

One has to know where that line is and Is it a stumbling block for them ??
I have an occasional beer and have no problem controlling myself and my intake. Therefore, I think it depends on the person themself and how they use or abuse it.

GutterRat · Sep 6, 2005

The idea that drinking is a sin comes from a "Christian Marker" - every religion has these markers. It's something to set them apart form the rest of society. It's been passed down generation after generation. You can toss scripture around all day if you want - but it's all open to interpretation.

Don't smoke - only bad people do that.
Don't drink - see above
Don't dance - leads to sin
Don't get tattoo's - only bad people get tats

These are all examples of "Christian Markers". You can toss scripture all day at them - but there is not 100% proof that these things are sinful.

Later -
GR

I'ddie4him · Sep 6, 2005

GutterRat said:
The idea that drinking is a sin comes from a "Christian Marker" - every religion has these markers. It's something to set them apart form the rest of society. It's been passed down generation after generation. You can toss scripture around all day if you want - but it's all open to interpretation.

Don't smoke - only bad people do that.
Don't drink - see above
Don't dance - leads to sin
Don't get tattoo's - only bad people get tats

These are all examples of "Christian Markers". You can toss scripture all day at them - but there is not 100% proof that these things are sinful.

Later -
GR

You are right in most respects here.
Some religions do believe that dancing is a sin, Leads to other things.
Drinking isn't a sin til one does it to excess and it leads to drunkenness.
There is a few scripture verse where Christ addressed this. Drinking itself isn't, But, Drunkenness is.

This is one from Galations,

Ga 5:21

envyings, drunkenness, revellings, and such like; of which I forewarn you, even as I did forewarn you, that they who practise such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

And another from Romans,

Ro 14:21

It is good not to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor [to do anything] whereby thy brother stumbleth.

From 1st Corinthians,

1co 10:31

Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God

To me this is saying that if one does not cause his brother to stumble or do something to excess, It is not sinful. Thats my understanding here.

KevinC · Sep 7, 2005

This is an issue of christian liberty, much like eating meat(1 Cor. 8). Paul new, because of his spiritual maturity, that alchohol was innately bad, but could actually be good(Titus 5) But, like in the case of meat, alchohol could make someone stumble thus it, in some cases, might need to be abstained from. It is, therefore, a cultural issue. If your culture views alchohol in a negative way, abstain. If not, drink in moderation.

Harlan Norris · Sep 8, 2005

HimAlone said:
Some say that Achohol is bad Some Say it is good?
But Is it really good for a christian to be drinking
Some say that it is just like cola....cause both do harm your body....
its like obessedy it harms your body also.
Some say ...well jesus drank so why can' we?
so what is it?
is it like cola, choclate bars?
Bad or good?
Personally I think that its bad....
Because who would wanna drink something that destroys famlies and crushes relationships.....

I want u guys to answer me please!

Shure, I'll answer. Let me say first of all that I have quite a bit of experience with drinking. I honestly believe that there are people that just shouldn't drink at all. I would be one of those.I recently attended a funeral for a man I knew, that drank himself to death. He did try to get off the sauce. He just didn't have the strength. However, I also believe, that there are many people that can take a drink from time to time, when it's appropriate. This practice may actually be beneficial. For them. Might I ask, why the concern? Have people comented on your drinking? Are you personally concerned? If the answer to these is yes, then I'd say you should seriously consider quitting. But, yes Jesus did take a drink of wine, when the occasion called for it.

Drinking? Is It ok?

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