Doubts about praying to the saints

[Daedalus]

Hi
I'm having doubts about praying to the saints and I can't make them go away.
They started when I was trying to convince a 7th day adventist there is nothing wrong with it.
Basically I explained how you pray for a friend and how saints do that for you, but he asked me what's the pourpose for that if God can hear you.
Anyway, I used all sorts of arguments, I even made an analogy -- what if someone that wants your help has done something wrong and is ashamed to come and ask you first came and asked your mother, then you would be more inclined to help him.
The truth is I can't see how that can apply to God.

I know we end up with "St. .... pray for me" but I started that only recently (!!!!), I used to pray to saints and the Virgin Mary just as I prayed to God -- that is a sin.

I don't know how many people did the same, but it crosses my mind that if I did it, there could me many others who do it, just because they don't really know.

I've seen a lot of non-educated people pray to the saints, and I really wonder how they do pray -- directly or if they ask for prayers in return.

And Jesus said that Israel was going to be judged by the 12 apostoles, but never said we should pray to them.

I know that Jesus said "I am the path, the truth and the life", and He didn't use it as to show who we should pray to but....
Except for the apostoles and the Virgin Mary, how can we be sure who's in havens and who isn't ?

I mean, the romanian Church proclaimed a rutheless king as a saint (because he built more than 42 churches in His life and other reasons I don't know) -- but he had 7 wifes and he would often kill people just because they were taller than him.
I know this is an isolated case but anyway, tell me what you think.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Did you ask your adventist friend if they every pray for anyone or ask anyone to pray for them? If so, then why? They can go directly to God themselves, right? So what use would it be for us to pray for each other using that logic?

But we are commanded to pray for each other . .

And the bible tells us that the effectual prayer of the Righteious man availeth much . .

The saints are most definitely righteious . .and since they are no longer hindered in their prayers from things in life that distract and get in the way, their prayers are might and effectual . .


Your friend believes in soul sleep . . that we do not go to heaven until the Great White Throne Judgement . . until then, we are unaware nad asleep . ..

The answer is that we do NOT sleep after death . . and that the saints in heaven are there right now and they are a mighty army of prayer warriors . .


Also, do you think the first Christians would have gotten it all wrong right after Christ?

Look into the Catacoombs . . they are full of thousands of prayers inscribed to those who were martyred . . tons of evidence that this was the faithful teaching of the Apostolic Church . .


Peace in Him!

 

[Daedalus]

Also, do you think the first Christians would have gotten it all wrong right after Christ?

Look into the Catacoombs . . they are full of thousands of prayers inscribed to those who were martyred . . tons of evidence that this was the faithful teaching of the Apostolic Church . .
Peace in Him!

Well, thanks, that's an argument I also use a lot .
I know what they believe into, though from what I've read because he would say otherwise.
I've seen somewhere they believe Jesus an archangel.
Anyway, that wasn't mainly what I was interested.
I was interested in the prospects of figuring it out the wrong way.

 

[nikephoros_spatharios]

I think about it this way: if I'm sick, then my friends or my family can't cure me, but only the Doctor can. But still, I might also ask my friends and family for help, and they will comfort me, and perhaps talk to the Doctor on my behalf, but in any case, talking to them is good.

Now, replace Doctor with God and friends with saints and you get the idea: the Church isn't a bunch of individuals, it is more like a family.

 

[countrymousenc]

And Jesus said that Israel was going to be judged by the 12 apostoles, but never said we should pray to them.

And do you know what this means? It doesn't only mean that someday we will stand in front of the apostles waiting for a decision. To judge, in the Biblical context, means to rule. (That's why it's so important for us to understand that we dwell in the millennial gospel age.) The apostles and saints are ruling over us along with Christ even now. So we certainly can and should ask them to pray for us and help us! ("Help" is what we mean when we ask the Theotokos to "save us.")

I hope this helps.

God bless you,
Dianne

 

[Rilian]

There's a few ways I look at this issue. First is that the saints are people who have lived visibly and markedly holy lives who we can say with the highest confidence have particpated in God's energies to the fullest extent possible. The church is a living organism which encompasses what we know in this life and what exists in the next, the church militant and the church triumphant.

I've heard prayer to saints described as a backdoor to God, but I don't agree with that. I view praying to saints as looking for guidance, support and help from people who have fought the spiritual battles of life before me. They have walked the road of temptation, sin and despair and kept their focus on God and his will. St. Maximos the Confessor describes them as living the natural life intended for us if I remember correctly. I ask them for the inner strength to do the same.

 

[Oblio]

On the Intercessions of the Saints

 

[Orthodox Andrew]

I noticed that nothing beats asking for prayers from the Saints when I feel weak in faith, or when my mind can't focus on prayer. When I can't get a prayer from the heart out, I simply ask a Saint to do it for me instead. I thank God for the prayers of the Saints, because I really need them.

 

[Orthodox Andrew]

BTW, check out my signature.

 

[CatholicAndFanatical]

you could also refer your friend to Revelations where in Scriptures it talks about the Holy Ones in front of the throne with bowls of incense upon their heads and the incense represent the prayers of the faithful and their offering it to God.

If they were not aware of our prayers then how are they going to offer them up to God?
Wasnt Elijah and Moses dead already when they appeared to Jesus during the Transfiguration? So the soul sleep that your friend believes would have to be false.

Another analogy I like to use is the tree/branch thought. Were all the branches and Jesus is the tree, we dont sease to be the tree if we die in His friendship, Because Jess is the God of the Living, not the dead, and were still very much apart of tree.

So go ahead, ask your fellow branch to pray for you..come to the branch, the branch is good

 

[CatholicAndFanatical]

hey andreas, great minds think alike huh! hehe

 

[Orthodox Andrew]

hey andreas, great minds think alike huh! hehe

 

[Rick of Wessex]

Dear Daedalus,

I hope this can help:

Our souls are immortal and Scripture says, "God is not a God of the dead, but of the living." Was Moses dead when he appeared with Christ at the Transfiguration? St. Paul in his Letter to the Hebrews says we are surrounded by a "cloud of witnesses."

The problem that most people have with the communion of saints (including your Adventist friend) is that they may think we go to the saints instead of Christ. Nothing could be further than the truth.

Christ and the Apostles, especially Saint Paul, urge us to pray for one another. Now, if (for instance) a Baptist can ask his pastor or a friend (who both still have a chance to ruin their lives through sin) to pray for him, why can I not ask those who have already made it through this life, who have overcome sin by Christ's grace, to pray for me? If someone tells me that I cannot ask a saint to pray for me simply because they are physically dead, they are denying the immortality of the soul and the afterlife.

There has never been a time when the Christian Church has not asked for the prayers of the saints. This practice dates all the way back to the time of the Apostles, because that is exactly what the Apostles taught us. This practice was not done away with until well after the Reformation.

In XC,
Rick

 

[Rick of Wessex]

And here is what some of the early Chuch Fathers taught about this:

"Clement of Alexandria
In this way is he [the true Christian] always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him [in prayer]" (Miscellanies 7:12 [A.D. 208]).

"Origen
But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels . . . as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep" (Prayer 11 [A.D. 233]).

"Cyprian of Carthage
Let us remember one another in concord and unanimity. Let us on both sides [of death] always pray for one another. Let us relieve burdens and afflictions by mutual love, that if one of us, by the swiftness of divine condescension, shall go hence first, our love may continue in the presence of the Lord, and our prayers for our brethren and sisters not cease in the presence of the Father’s mercy" (Letters 56[60]:5 [A.D. 253]).

Anonymous
"Atticus, sleep in peace, secure in your safety, and pray anxiously for our sins" (funerary inscription near St. Sabina’s in Rome [A.D. 300]).

"Pray for your parents, Matronata Matrona. She lived one year, fifty-two days" (ibid.).

"Mother of God,[listen to] my petitions; do not disregard us in adversity, but rescue us from danger" (Rylands Papyrus 3 [A.D. 350]).

"Methodius
Hail to you for ever, Virgin Mother of God, our unceasing joy, for to you do I turn again. You are the beginning of our feast; you are its middle and end; the pearl of great price that belongs to the kingdom; the fat of every victim, the living altar of the Bread of Life [Jesus]. Hail, you treasure of the love of God. Hail, you fount of the Son’s love for man. . . . You gleamed, sweet gift-bestowing Mother, with the light of the sun; you gleamed with the insupportable fires of a most fervent charity, bringing forth in the end that which was conceived of you . . . making manifest the mystery hidden and unspeakable, the invisible Son of the Father—the Prince of Peace, who in a marvelous manner showed himself as less than all littleness" (Oration on Simeon and Anna 14 [A.D. 305]).

"Cyril of Jerusalem
Then [during the Eucharistic prayer] we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition . . . " (Catechetical Lectures 23:9 [A.D. 350]).

In XC,
Rick

 

[Matthias]

These doubts you have are painful to read.

 

[xenia]

Here's another approach that turned on the light bulb in my head. It's a little convoluted, but absolutely nailed the problem for me.

Back when I was a Dispensationalist Pre-millennialist Pre-tribber (That is to say, back when I believed the theology presented in the Left Behind books) I believed that after the Rapture and the Tribulation there would be a thousand-year Millennial Kingdom with Jesus ruling from Jerusalem. I believed that the saints- that is, us Evangelical Christians- would rule and reign with Christ. The idea of Christians ruling with Christ during the Millennium is mentioned in the book of Revelation.

Now, as an Orthodox Christian, I don't buy any of the Left Behind stuff. I believe that the Millennial Kingdom = The Kingdom of God, which is happening NOW. It's the Church, both on earth and in heaven. So who are the saints ruling and reigning with Christ during the Millennium? The SAINTS! Yep, St. Peter, St. Paul, St. Seraphim, St. Xenia, and so on. Especially the Blessed Theotokos, the Champion Leader of us Christians on earth and in heaven.

Hope that makes sense.

Love, Xenia

 

[Rilian]

I was re-reading Daniel last night and came across a passage that made me think of this thread. In the second chapter Nebuchadnezzar has put out a call to kill all the wise men of Babylon because nobody can recall and give him the interpretation of his dream. Daniel tells the captain of the guard that he can do it, even though at the time he's not sure. Then in verses 16 to 19 it says

So Daniel went in and asked the king to give him time, that he might tell the king the interpretation. Then Daniel went to his house, and made the decision known to Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah, his companions, that they might seek mercies from the God of heaven concerning this secret, so that Daniel and his companions might not perish with the rest of the wise men of Babylon. Then the secret was revealed to Daniel in a night vision. So Daniel blessed the God of heaven.

Daniel seeks the help of the three children to pray for the answer.

 

[Matthias]

Why all these painful doubts! Why!

 

[Rilian]

Doubts are an inescapable part of Christian life. Faith wouldn't make sense without doubt.

 

[Photini]

On praying to the Saints:

"When we pray, then the ears of the Lord are inclined to our prayer. He is then, as in general He always is, as near to us as the Icon, before which we stand, and even much nearer: He is close to our very heart. His presence near us is as manifest as the visible Icon, and therefore the Icon is only a visible representation of how near the Lord is to us, how He looks upon us and hears us. And God's Saints, in the Holy Spirit, are also as near to us as the Holy Spirit is near to us, Who is everywhere present and filleth all things, 'Whose temple we are,' (Heb 3:6) and in the Holy Spirit they see and hear us in the same way as we see and hear people speaking to us. For the Holy Spirit is the medium, by which we see and hear even ordinary things."

How do the Saints hear us? They hear us as being one the in Holy Spirit with us--'that they also may be one is us' (John 17:21), as members of the one Church of God, having for her head the one Christ, and animated by the one Spirit of God. The saints see and hear us in the Holy Spirit in the same manner as we see and hear with our bodily eyes and ears by means of light and air; but our bodily sight and hearing are very imperfect in comparison to spiritual sight and hearing. At a great distance we cannot see many objects and cannot hear many sounds, but spiritual sight and hearing are perfect; not a single movement of the heart, not a single thought, not a single word, intention, or desire escapes them, because the Spirit of God--in Whom the saints dwell and hear us--is all-perfect, onmiscient, all-seeing, and all-hearing, for He is omnipresent."

~from My Life in Christ by St. John of Kronstadt