Is it fair to say God predestines people to Hell when all He really is doing is ignoring the non-elect? Since that is the case, it really isn't double, right? Or is it still considered double since God has ordained all things according to His will?
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Double predestination?
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AMR
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After you read the following I think you will have a better perspective on this topic:
"Double" Predestination by R.C. Sproul
Let us know your thoughts after reviewing this summary.
"Double" Predestination by R.C. Sproul
Let us know your thoughts after reviewing this summary.
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The OP seems to be asking more about the name. As noted in the document AMR pointed to, "double predestination" isn't completely symmetrical. That is, the claim isn't that God damns people in the same direct way that he regenerates the elect. There's no negative equivalent of the Holy Spirit degenerating them. I think the reason it's referred to as "double" (though it's not Calvin's language) is that Calvin and others were trying to emphasize that God is really responsible for everything. At the level of his plan, he plans what happens to those who are rejected just as much as what happens to the elect. This emphasis was necessary to make it clear how his teaching differed from various attempts at compromise. Hence double is used to contrast Calvin's view with various types of "single" predestination, some of them described in that document.
Nevertheless, in my view "double" can be misleading.
In my opinion there are really two ways in which God works with us. One is a general providence. God is responsible for everything that happens. But normally he does this through "secondary causes," that is the actions of people, and the functioning of natural law. That's really part of the concept of creation: God created a realm where we can function that behaves predictably. If things just worked randomly with no predictable connection between action and result, or if God was continually doing miracles, no one could be responsible for anything. Providence says that God's planning is such that even the operation of natural laws and people's decisions carry out his will.
But God works more personally with us. it's true that general providence also applies. We become who we are partly due to our families, our genetics, etc., which are all part of God's overall plan. But Reformed theology has always maintained (and Christians generally experience) that the Holy Spirit works in us directly. Our grafting into Christ is an act of the Holy Spirit. This kind of personal presence of God with us is single. That is, there's no negative version of it for those who aren't elect.
One concern I have is that in discussions about predestination, sometimes the general dominates the discussion, and we make God's work with his people look impersonal. That's certainly not something Calvin would want.
Objections to double predestination can occur in both areas. Most people would probably agree with the distinction I've made. The objections that I know are of two major types: (1) that God actually decides that specific people will reject him. I think we have to classify rejection as part of general providence, since there's no negative Holy Spirit. I think most people will say that God's plan *includes* rejections. I think most Christians will say that God brings good out of evil. He can't cause everything to work together for good unless even the bad is taken into account by his plan. So it seems to me that the real debate is whether it's right to say that he *intends* anyone to reject him, and whether he sets up his plan specifically to damn certain people (though I'm not sure a Calvinist actually has to say this.) There is a more radical alternative, that God simply doesn't control everything. This is associated with a position called "open theism." The difficulty with this -- aside from the question of whether it's consistent with Scripture -- is that it's difficult to see how God can make everything work together for good if he's not in control. But open theists think it's possible.
(2) The other place where objections occur is with the claim that the work of the Holy Spirit is irresistible. That is, most Christians will agree that the Holy Spirit works in us to regenerate us. But some believe that there's a kind of cooperation with us, so that he succeeds only if we allow it. The Reformed position is that this is ignores the severity of the Fall, which leaves us so that we couldn't even say yes to God's offer without him having previously moved us to get us to the point of saying yes.
Most Calvinists that I've seen in CF seem to place the heaviest weight on the last point, that the real point of predestination is God's grace, and grace can't be grace unless it has no dependence upon us. One Calvin scholar (John Leith) looking at how Calvin dealt with predestination throughout his commentaries, believed that Calvin's major concern was to preserve the fact that God is in control, so that everything that happens -- even bad things -- comes directly from the hand of God, and is intended for our good.
Nevertheless, in my view "double" can be misleading.
In my opinion there are really two ways in which God works with us. One is a general providence. God is responsible for everything that happens. But normally he does this through "secondary causes," that is the actions of people, and the functioning of natural law. That's really part of the concept of creation: God created a realm where we can function that behaves predictably. If things just worked randomly with no predictable connection between action and result, or if God was continually doing miracles, no one could be responsible for anything. Providence says that God's planning is such that even the operation of natural laws and people's decisions carry out his will.
But God works more personally with us. it's true that general providence also applies. We become who we are partly due to our families, our genetics, etc., which are all part of God's overall plan. But Reformed theology has always maintained (and Christians generally experience) that the Holy Spirit works in us directly. Our grafting into Christ is an act of the Holy Spirit. This kind of personal presence of God with us is single. That is, there's no negative version of it for those who aren't elect.
One concern I have is that in discussions about predestination, sometimes the general dominates the discussion, and we make God's work with his people look impersonal. That's certainly not something Calvin would want.
Objections to double predestination can occur in both areas. Most people would probably agree with the distinction I've made. The objections that I know are of two major types: (1) that God actually decides that specific people will reject him. I think we have to classify rejection as part of general providence, since there's no negative Holy Spirit. I think most people will say that God's plan *includes* rejections. I think most Christians will say that God brings good out of evil. He can't cause everything to work together for good unless even the bad is taken into account by his plan. So it seems to me that the real debate is whether it's right to say that he *intends* anyone to reject him, and whether he sets up his plan specifically to damn certain people (though I'm not sure a Calvinist actually has to say this.) There is a more radical alternative, that God simply doesn't control everything. This is associated with a position called "open theism." The difficulty with this -- aside from the question of whether it's consistent with Scripture -- is that it's difficult to see how God can make everything work together for good if he's not in control. But open theists think it's possible.
(2) The other place where objections occur is with the claim that the work of the Holy Spirit is irresistible. That is, most Christians will agree that the Holy Spirit works in us to regenerate us. But some believe that there's a kind of cooperation with us, so that he succeeds only if we allow it. The Reformed position is that this is ignores the severity of the Fall, which leaves us so that we couldn't even say yes to God's offer without him having previously moved us to get us to the point of saying yes.
Most Calvinists that I've seen in CF seem to place the heaviest weight on the last point, that the real point of predestination is God's grace, and grace can't be grace unless it has no dependence upon us. One Calvin scholar (John Leith) looking at how Calvin dealt with predestination throughout his commentaries, believed that Calvin's major concern was to preserve the fact that God is in control, so that everything that happens -- even bad things -- comes directly from the hand of God, and is intended for our good.
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Thanks both of you for the replies. I brought it up today at church in our class and my pastor also gave me a satisfying answer.
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Regarding predestination: Many Christians are awed by the word predestination that we forgot about context. In biblical context, predestination means that God has pre-planned to offer redemption to the Gentiles; it was NOT about predestination of individuals.
For 2000 years before the apostles' times, Yahweh was God to the Jews only, while other pagan nations worship many pluralistic gods. Even after Jesus' resurrection, the apostles initially thought that redemption was for Jews only. However, Peter had a vision about eating unclean food, and they realized that the Gentiles are invited too. Now, this was shocking to the Jews because it went against their tradition that was so rooted in the God of Abraham and Jacob, where Gentiles had no part in. Upset about the drastic change, the Jews demanded that Gentiles followed Jewish customs (many Christian Jews were still practicing circumcision and Sabbath at that time). Amid the hostility, even Peter distanced himself from the Gentiles, and Paul opposed him for that. To assure the Gentiles, Paul explained in Ephesians (and Letter of Romans) that God had always predestined (pre-planned) to offer redemption to the Gentiles. Let me explain the following verses while quoting them:
Ephesians 1:12, 13
[12]"In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. ==> "we, who were the first to hope in Christ" refers to the Jews who had believed in God for 2000 years, since the times of Abraham, Jacob and Moses.
Speaking as a Jew, Paul said the pronoun "we" [v 12], and as he referred to the Gentiles, he said "you" [v 13] ==>
[13] And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation ==> The Gentiles, who were previously outsiders, are now included in God's redemption.
When seen in context, the Bible was not talking about predestination of individuals. Instead, predestination means God has always planned -- or pre-planned, predestined or destined -- to offer redemption to the Gentiles. Different translations use different words but when we know context, we will not drill into the words technically.
Regarding the words "chosen people" or "Chosen by God": We tend to interpret factually today, thinking that God handpick or choose who should be saved. However, during biblical times, people were more submissive to God -- much, much more than people today. Back then, they don't say that they chose to believe in Him; instead they said that God chose them. It is a humble way of speaking. To say that they chose God would have sounded arrogant or inappropriate in those times. Today, 2000 years later, times change and languages change too, and we don't speak that way anymore. To us now, "chosen by God" sounds like He literally chooses Jason or Susan. But back then, it was really a humble way to say that it was a privilege to be part of God's people or kingdom.
For 2000 years before the apostles' times, Yahweh was God to the Jews only, while other pagan nations worship many pluralistic gods. Even after Jesus' resurrection, the apostles initially thought that redemption was for Jews only. However, Peter had a vision about eating unclean food, and they realized that the Gentiles are invited too. Now, this was shocking to the Jews because it went against their tradition that was so rooted in the God of Abraham and Jacob, where Gentiles had no part in. Upset about the drastic change, the Jews demanded that Gentiles followed Jewish customs (many Christian Jews were still practicing circumcision and Sabbath at that time). Amid the hostility, even Peter distanced himself from the Gentiles, and Paul opposed him for that. To assure the Gentiles, Paul explained in Ephesians (and Letter of Romans) that God had always predestined (pre-planned) to offer redemption to the Gentiles. Let me explain the following verses while quoting them:
Ephesians 1:12, 13
[12]"In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. ==> "we, who were the first to hope in Christ" refers to the Jews who had believed in God for 2000 years, since the times of Abraham, Jacob and Moses.
Speaking as a Jew, Paul said the pronoun "we" [v 12], and as he referred to the Gentiles, he said "you" [v 13] ==>
[13] And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation ==> The Gentiles, who were previously outsiders, are now included in God's redemption.
When seen in context, the Bible was not talking about predestination of individuals. Instead, predestination means God has always planned -- or pre-planned, predestined or destined -- to offer redemption to the Gentiles. Different translations use different words but when we know context, we will not drill into the words technically.
Regarding the words "chosen people" or "Chosen by God": We tend to interpret factually today, thinking that God handpick or choose who should be saved. However, during biblical times, people were more submissive to God -- much, much more than people today. Back then, they don't say that they chose to believe in Him; instead they said that God chose them. It is a humble way of speaking. To say that they chose God would have sounded arrogant or inappropriate in those times. Today, 2000 years later, times change and languages change too, and we don't speak that way anymore. To us now, "chosen by God" sounds like He literally chooses Jason or Susan. But back then, it was really a humble way to say that it was a privilege to be part of God's people or kingdom.
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twin1954
Baptist by the Bible
This is the Ask A Calvinist forum. Since you are not a Calvinist you have no right or reason to answer. Unless you are asking a sincere question that you would like answered by a Calvinist please refrain from giving your opinions.
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Some concepts to ponder...
You will die in your sins unless you believe Jesus is the Christ of God.
You believe in Christ because of the Fathers work in you.
You are either of this world, then you will perish or not of this world then you will have eternal everlasting life. The difference is dependent on God and Christ revealing to you themselves, both Him and the Father, something Jesus finds great joy in..
John 6
28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
John 8:21-24
Jesus Predicts His Departure
21 Then Jesus said to them again, “I am going away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin. Where I go you cannot come.”
22 So the Jews said, “Will He kill Himself, because He says, ‘Where I go you cannot come’?”
23 And He said to them, “You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”
John 15:19
If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.
Luke 10:21-22New King James Version (NKJV)
Jesus Rejoices in the Spirit
21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in the Spirit and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight.
22 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.”
So unless the truth is revealed to you by the Holy Spirit you will not believe and you will die in your sins, you perish.
You will die in your sins unless you believe Jesus is the Christ of God.
You believe in Christ because of the Fathers work in you.
You are either of this world, then you will perish or not of this world then you will have eternal everlasting life. The difference is dependent on God and Christ revealing to you themselves, both Him and the Father, something Jesus finds great joy in..
John 6
28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
John 8:21-24
Jesus Predicts His Departure
21 Then Jesus said to them again, “I am going away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin. Where I go you cannot come.”
22 So the Jews said, “Will He kill Himself, because He says, ‘Where I go you cannot come’?”
23 And He said to them, “You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”
John 15:19
If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.
Luke 10:21-22New King James Version (NKJV)
Jesus Rejoices in the Spirit
21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in the Spirit and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight.
22 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.”
So unless the truth is revealed to you by the Holy Spirit you will not believe and you will die in your sins, you perish.
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