double predestination

[Mary_Magdalene]

what does "double predestination" mean??

thanks.

 

[rmwilliamsll]

what does "double predestination" mean??

thanks.

from one of the better essays on the topic at:
http://www.visi.com/~contra_m/cm/features2/cm98_bm_luther.html

Of the many great doctrines rediscovered and revived during the Protestant Reformation, one in particular has and continues to be one of heated debate and discussion: the doctrine of predestination. This doctrine, perhaps more than any other, has caused division and strife within the Christian Church, and in particular, has historically been a dividing line between the traditions of Calvinism and Lutheranism. Why is this? What significant differences between Lutheran and Calvinist thought concerning predestination cause such a division?

Nearly all Modern Lutheran scholars insist that while John Calvin and his followers (Beza, Bucer, Knox, etc.) affirm the doctrine of double predestination, Martin Luther and his followers affirm the doctrine of single predestination. Double predestination affirms that in eternity past, prior to the creation of the universe, God chose and elected a people for himself whom he would actively save in the outworking of history, but at the same time, chose to pass over the remaining number of mankind, thus handing them over to their sinful state, and reprobating them to the consequences of their sin: eternal hell. Double predestination affirms both God's election and His reprobation of certain men in eternity past. That is, God decreed that some would be saved, and others would be lost. Calvinist theologian Louis Berkhof defines reprobation as "[T]hat eternal decree of God whereby He has determined to pass some men by with the operations of His special grace, and to punish them for their sins, to the manifestation of His justice." [1]
...
Augustine clearly taught that from eternity God predestined those whom He would save and those whom He would not. In writing against the Pelagian heretics of his day, Augustine was prolific in his treatment of divine predestination. He taught that the Sovereignty of God was so great that even the hearts and wills of wicked men are directly controlled by God Himself. He wrote, "It is, therefore, in the power of the wicked to sin; but that in sinning they should do this or that by that wickedness is not in their power, but in God's, who divides the darkness and regulates it; so that hence even what they do contrary to God's will is not fulfilled except it be God's will."[8] In his Treatise on Grace & Free Will, the title of Chapter 41 reads, "The wills of men are so much in the power of God, that he can turn them whithersoever it pleases him."[9] And again, chapter 42 reads, "God does whatsoever he wills in the hearts of even wicked men." He begins the chapter, "Who can help trembling at those judgments of God by which He does in the hearts of even wicked men whatsoever He wills, at the same time rendering to them according to their deeds?"[10] Thus, it is clear that Augustine's doctrine is centered around the Sovereignty of God.

encouraging people to take the time to read the entire paper is the point of these pullquotes.

 

[Bro. Gabriel]

http://www.desiringgod.org/library/theological_qa/calvinism/seven_points.html

 

[ksen]

what does "double predestination" mean??
thanks.

It means, in a nutshell, that not only are some predestined for Heaven, but the rest are predestined for the Lake of Fire.

 

[Bro. Gabriel]

Some people consider this "Hyper-Calvinism", by the way.. I don't think people like the idea of God being just in doing whatever He wills.

 

[ksen]

Some people consider this "Hyper-Calvinism", by the way.. I don't think people like the idea of God being just in doing whatever He wills.

I think Hyper-Calvinism takes the extreme position that the Gospel should only be preached to the Elect.

 

[Wilfred of Ivanhoe]

I think Hyper-Calvinism takes the extreme position that the Gospel should only be preached to the Elect.

And how do they know who the elect are? Has God told them? Or did he not say that we should preach the Gospel to all, for all are sinners!

 

[rnmomof7]

And how do they know who the elect are? Has God told them? Or did he not say that we should preach the Gospel to all, for all are sinners!

Spurgeon used to say , "if the elect had yellow stripes going down their back , we would run around lifting shirts


This is why we are commanded to publish the Bible where ever we go.

God will select the day and time and open the ears.. All we need do is be faithful

 

[rnmomof7]

what does "double predestination" mean??

thanks.

What it means is that God selected some for Glory and some for damnation


Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?


I happen to be a double predestinarian , I do think most Calvinists are single . I do not see a a real difference in the reality of it

 

[Wilfred of Ivanhoe]

What it means is that God selected some for Glory and some for damnation


Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?


I happen to be a double predestinarian , I do think most Calvinists are single . I do not see a a real difference in the reality of it

If you believe in single predestination, it would allow go to say that those who aren't predestined to salvation are predestined to Hell. I've heard Spurgeon preach on this and he argues that God doesn't directly predestinate people for Hell. Wheras it takes an act of God to save a person, all God has to do to send someone to Hell is to let them to themselves; we'll all condemn ourselves by our actions.

Everytime I think on people dying without Jesus, I cringe because I know that the only thing that differenciates me from the condemned is the blood of Christ. Give God all the glory, and honor and praise his saving grace!

 

[Wilfred of Ivanhoe]

Spurgeon used to say , "if the elect had yellow stripes going down their back , we would run around lifting shirts


This is why we are commanded to publish the Bible where ever we go.

God will select the day and time and open the ears.. All we need do is be faithful

Amen! The funny thing is that my dad doesn't fully understand the doctrine of Predestination. He thinks that since I talk about bringing the gospel to people that I am somehow contradicting my belief of election and predestination. As Peter said, some of the things in the Bible, esp. the writings of Paul, are hard to understand.

 

[Bob L]

While this forum has adequately described double-predestination I would like to point out that it is false.

Calvinists believe that all men are predestined either to heaven or hell based solely on God's will. Arminians believe that all men are predestined to heaven or hell based on God's infinite foreknowledge of how they would choose to live before he even created them. One group says God has all the power and the other says that man has the power. While it is ludicrous to believe that man can have"power" when it comes to supernatural things such as eternal life, the Bible seems to have scores of passages that support man's responsibilty and only a very few that seem to support God's isolated decision. For centuries the two sides have debated with neither side clearly showing victory (regardless of some of the common visiotrs to this forum might think.)

Recognizing this seemingly unclosable rift and seeing the debate as unsolvable, some Christian leaders have taken to calling it a non-salvific debate and that while we can disagree on the points we should not divide over them. And while I agree with the sentiment I think we can abolish the supposition.

You see Calvinists and Arminians are both wrong. Becasue they both believe in predestination. Jesus never taught that some people were simply going to heaven and others were going to hell. Paul's letters deal quite a bit with the topic however. And Paul's letters (the ones we have) were only snippets of conversations usually caught in the middle of his dealings with certain churches. Churches which he usually had visited and taught in person and to whom he was writing follow-up letters to further his previous teachings. So when we view Paul's writings we have to keep in mind that they are not isolated coreespondences. There was a large amount of context that these letters would have to fit into. We unfortunately do not know all of the things he taught to the church of Ephesus, say, when he was with them so it is hard for us to completely understand the exact effect that Paul was going for with each line in his letter to them. We can guess many things about the context that the letter was written in from the letter itself as many passages are self evident. But some passages are more difficult and having the context in Paul's mind would be quite valuable in understanding these passages.

One such passage is Eph. 1:4-5 and 1:11. Through alot of study, it has become clear to me that what we understand (what most theologians, or every one I have ecer come across, teach) as predestination from these passages is the complete opposite of what Jesus taught and the complete opposite of Paul was saying. But it's because of the context that we are missing that we have gotten predestination so wrong.

It would be easy for me to say that there is some mystery context leading into this passage that I say refutes traditional teaching but what is my word worth? However, the context I am speaking of is the entirety of the Old Testament. The OT describes everything about the life of a Jew up to the point of Jesus' birth and can give us extermely poignant insights into the thinking of the Jews of that day, especially Paul.

My time is being cut short so I will pick this up later but in a nutshell:
Paul and the Jews of his day believed that the Jews were a chosen people, chosen for salvation, and the gentiles were not. Unfortunately for them. For whatever reason, maybe the Jews found favor with God because they worshipped him the best, but whatever the reason they had found favor with him and the rest of the world had not. Many Jews could not believe that a God described as love could actually do that. But scripture said it was so, so they had to believe. When Jesus came along and told his apostles to preach to the gentiles, they were shocked. But this new revelation, described by Paul in the first 3 chapters of Ephesians was an incredible insight. This mystery (how it is God loved all people) that had been hidden for thousands of years was finally now revealed. The teachings of the Jewish Rabbis had in effect been wrong all along. God did love all people.

And if, as a Jew, you thought you were chosen and predestined to go to heaven Paul said very well, so be it. But in Eph 1 he goes on to say that the gentiles were chosen also, it's just they were chosen through Christ. And all of this was not some new idea made up by Jesus or even by Paul himself, no this was God's predestined plan from before the foundstion of the Earth.
So Paul is not positing that one special group of people were chosen over others. In fact he was saying the opposite. That one group of people (Israel) who thought they were chosen above others were just chosen differently than others but all were chosen.

Of course there are reams of proof texts to go through and I'm sure we'll do that soon enough but for now, good night!

 

[frumanchu]

Respectfully, it might be helpful if you asked questions instead of coming into the Reformed discussion forum and telling us how wrong Reformed theology is

Might I suggest you start a thread on this topic in the Soteriology forum where debate would be more appropriate?

 

[Bob L]

Fair enough . Soteriology it is, hope to see you there!