Doma

McMatt · Jun 30, 2013

Eagle27 said:
That is not accurate. SSM was and would have been opposed by all up to the point of the current era.
It is against the laws of nature, not regarding the Scriptures here.

However, during the Cold War the Soviets would "entice" agents in high positions into giving over classified material to use against the USA.
So the government began to "slowly" promote homosexuality, first through movies, then books, and finally in the public.
Men would be sent videos of they and a KGB trained homosexual, and if they didn't hand over what was wanted, the tapes would be made public.
Many a man killed himself over this. Men who "cheated" on their wives.
(Gays are who gave the nuclear secrets to the Soviets under Stalin!)

But why do gays need to promote their disgusting habits (sodomy is disgusting!)?
For that matter, why does ANYONE, straight or gay, need to promote their sexual habits to the world?

That, in itself, is immoral, and history will show immoral nations do not last long.

But that is my PRIVATE opinion, that I use as an example.
As a Christian, I am to mind my own affairs in this world, and not jump onto the world stage over matters of this Nation.

Throughout Scriptures one thing is clear. All who lived under in faith kept their matters to themselves.
They did not seek to conquer the world or change the laws of nations.

What gets me is this: So called "Christians" seem to be hypocrites.
They boast of the laws of this land until they find the same law supports those who live in ways they disapprove of.
And they fail to see that the US Constitution was not written by the finger of God, but by men.

I totally agree. An exit ramp is not a loading dock. Also, I absolutely loathe gay parades and the gay rights groups who are consistently pushing themselves in peoples faces with their sexuality. Not only is it irritating, but it is also a private matter and I also find it immoral for them to push it on everyone's tv and down metropolitan streets (also claiming those who simply oppose the act of the parade are intolerant). A big example was when that basketball player came out as gay recently. There was an interview with a football player (I don't know the names, I am canadian and I only follow hockey lol) and he said that he is a christian and that he doesn't believe in homosexuality, but he offers his support to the player that came out. I read the comments on that article and it was FULL of negative comments on the fact that he said he doesn't believe in homosexuality and how he is "intolerant", but there was no recognition that he offered support to the gay player.

I simply say "my way is my way, and yours is yours" and my strongest conviction is that everyone should have the right to live as they will if it doesn't adversely affect those not involved. Personally, I am a christian an I believe homosexuality is a sin. I will never dispute that fact. But I am here to follow god, not to play god with everyone else's lives

InSpiritInTruth · Jun 30, 2013

McMatt said:
Again, you ignore the important points and go for an obscure sentence to spew some "holy" crap. Answer my question. By the way, I am a bill collector, I know when someone is dodging the question. Would you prefer to be under sharia law? Or is that no good for you because you are not muslim?

The point isn't about whether it is considered a biblically moral act or not. The point is that the whole world doesn't need to be governed by the laws of christianity because the majority of the world doesn't believe in christianity.

Sorry, I don't consider the words of God "holy" crap as you might. Also I'll answer what I want to answer thankyou, as your comparison to Gods righteous judgments and sharia law is nothing more than just plain silly.

And if the world don't want be governed by Gods commandments then they will also suffer the consequences of their actions.

InSpiritInTruth · Jun 30, 2013

Eagle27 said:
McMatt: I happen to agree with you here, in that respect.
It is not the duty of Christians to tell the world how to live, and I am a Christian saying this.
The concern of a Christian should be WITHIN their OWN house, not others.

Not true. The Lord came to call all sinners to repentance, as He also commisioned his disciples to do the same.

Those true Christians who have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit will reprove the world of sin.

John 16:8
And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

McMatt · Jun 30, 2013

InSpiritInTruth said:
Sorry, I don't consider the words of God "holy" crap as you might. Also I'll answer what I want to answer thankyou, as your comparison to Gods righteous judgments and sharia law is nothing more than just plain silly.

And if the world don't want be governed by Gods commandments then they will also suffer the consequences of their actions.

Actually its just being credible. Ignoring the questions that you cannot come up with an answer for is still cowardice. To ignore the important points makes everything you argue invalid and useless. The "holy" crap is not to describe god's words. I used it to describe your words. It is basically an argument made with useless, known, or circular logic, little substance, but said in a dramatic way to make one's self seem like the righteous person in the argument.

My comparison is not silly. Reason being I will say with 100% guarantee that you would not want to be ruled under sharia law because you are not a muslim male (which is what sharia law favours). Everyone who is not christian feels the exact same way in north america about christians pushing their laws into legislation and enforcing their morals on everyone who doesn't believe the same way.

When does god cast judgement on the non-repentant? And does god say we cast our own judgement on them before then? Or ever? Does god even command that we meddle in their lives, or does he command we show them his love?

Also for the record, homosexuality was not even mentioned in gods commandments, yet it has existed since way before that point. So god deemed it an abomination and a sin, but he didn't make it part of the laws that man are to be governed by in this world.

Also, don't take one bible verse and put it out of context.

John 16:
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

Are you the holy spirit? Because I am pretty sure the holy spirit is the one to reprove the world... not you.

InSpiritInTruth · Jun 30, 2013

Those who are born of God has His witness in themselves.

McMatt · Jun 30, 2013

Actually the holy spirit does it's job internally. Could also be known as a conscience. You aren't supposed to be everyone else's conscience. Did jesus ever nit-pick at the lives of his followers? I only remember him telling them to come follow him and join him in fellowship. He didn't sit there and point fingers. Pointing fingers is what led to things like the crusades and the slaughtering of native americans

InSpiritInTruth · Jun 30, 2013

John 7:7
The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.

McMatt · Jun 30, 2013

Again, you took part of the scripture and used it out of context.

Eagle27 · Jun 30, 2013

InSpiritInTruth said:
Not true. The Lord came to call all sinners to repentance, as He also commisioned his disciples to do the same.

Those true Christians who have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit will reprove the world of sin.

And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

Yes, that is true. What the world does is no concern to the follower of Christ.
The verse you quoted was as a testimony, against any excuse at unbelief.
As Paul told the Romans in Ch. 1, of why the wrath of God has come upon mankind.
They are without excuse because "he has shown it to them." (His works and proof of his existence through his works.)

And Christ came ONLY for the lost sheep of Israel. For the children of Abraham.
Any who has a God or Christ that came not through the promise of Abraham is not in the second covenant.

Eagle27 · Jun 30, 2013

McMatt said:
Actually the holy spirit does it's job internally. Could also be known as a conscience. You aren't supposed to be everyone else's conscience. Did jesus ever nit-pick at the lives of his followers? I only remember him telling them to come follow him and join him in fellowship. He didn't sit there and point fingers. Pointing fingers is what led to things like the crusades and the slaughtering of native americans

Every part of man is defiled by sin. Both original sin, by birth, and by their own sins, committed and even thought,
The conscience is corrupt and is not a sign of the Spirit. Even natural men have a conscience..

You just contradicted yourself though....
That is what I was trying to say, that you said was not true.
It is not the Christians job to "reprove" the world, but in their actions and offering their lives for the Word of God.

Another thing...how can Christians reprove the world for even their sinful thoughts?
For we as believers know our very thoughts will be judged.
Sin comes from within the hearts and minds.

That is why, show me the most morally and upright man, without Christ, yet he is lost, and under the wrath of God.
For the righteousness of man is the greatest enemy of the cross of Christ.
Many think they can be saved by their own free-will. The will is of the self, and it is not in our power to receive the gift of God.
Otherwise it would mean we earned it, and the grace of God is never earned. '
Those who think this are still under the covenant of works.

Jake Brake · Jun 30, 2013

McMatt said:
Actually the holy spirit does it's job internally. Could also be known as a conscience. You aren't supposed to be everyone else's conscience. Did jesus ever nit-pick at the lives of his followers? I only remember him telling them to come follow him and join him in fellowship. He didn't sit there and point fingers. Pointing fingers is what led to things like the crusades and the slaughtering of native americans

yes, that appears to be the honest truth.

I do think that conscience is a creature and is developed as we learn to love as Jesus did. (we haven't got there yet as a whole).

No, we are not to be everyone else conscience, but all true followers of Christ should have a collective conscience, like-minded in Christ. And the goal is to know the mind of God. The problem I see is that we don't put what we have learned into practice. Applied science or Applied engineering is great, but maybe for human spiritual health and to better develop a global Christian cultural-homogenization Applied theology works best.

But as it is here in USA so goes in other parts of the world, a cultural-heterogenization is in place. Not every one wants to be a Christian and not everyone appreciates DOMA or SSM's.

McMatt · Jun 30, 2013

Jake Brake said:
yes, that appears to be the honest truth.

I do think that conscience is a creature and is developed as we learn to love as Jesus did. (we haven't got there yet as a whole).

No, we are not to be everyone else conscience, but all true followers of Christ should have a collective conscience, like-minded in Christ. And the goal is to know the mind of God. The problem I see is that we don't put what we have learned into practice. Applied science or Applied engineering is great, but maybe for human spiritual health and to better develop a global Christian cultural-homogenization Applied theology works best.

But as it is here in USA so goes in other parts of the world, a cultural-heterogenization is in place. Not every one wants to be a Christian and not everyone appreciates DOMA or SSM's.

Totally agree. As your walk grows with god, I believe your conscience gets more influence from the holy spirit. The problem is that most churches look at the holy spirit in such a literal fashion that they believe it to be something that actually "speaks" to you. Then they put on a show of speaking in tongues, when really they are mocking the notion and really just putting random syllables together. I just personally get really fed up with a majority of "christians" giving us a bad rep by being extreme fundies and pushing that fundamentalist mentality on everyone else

Archivist · Jul 1, 2013

InSpiritInTruth said:
Hats off to the governor then. And no I don't believe gay marriage should be recognized anywhere because it is an abomination. My comment was to show how the Judges by not making a judgment call on prop 8 also caused the majority vote of the people in California to be cancelled out.

But you have now admitted that you don't care about the will of the majority except in cases where the majority agrees with you.

The Supreme Court knew what it was doing by taking this inaction, as they also knew how the results of their decision would also bring the results they desired.

No, the Supreme Counrt operated according to procedures that have been in effect from the early days of the Republic. You must have standing to bring a case.

The majority of the people voted it out, the judges allowed it to be brought back in.

But you have admitted that you don't care about the majority unless they agree with you.

Archivist · Jul 1, 2013

Jake Brake said:
A veto can be over ridden by majority in the legislature a two third or three fourths vote, am I correct about that. If so, then it was those in the majority legislature that failed to pass the law.

A majority in the legislature voted in favor of the bill. Thus far they lack the 2/3s majority to override the veto.

So, the governor may to be blamed for sending the bill back to the legislators through power of veto, it was the legislators who failed.

I'm not "blaming" anyone. I'm simply pointing out that the OP seems to care about the will of the majority only when it favors his position.

And since the legislators usually react to what their constituents desire on hot button social issues I suspect that the majority of citizens in New jersey do not support SSM.

I'm confused. A majority of the NJ legislature voted in favor of the bill--how does that indicate that the majority of NJ voters do not support SSM?

BTW, polls have shown otherwise, and if it goes to a referendum it is considered likely that it will pass.

New Jersey: The next battleground for gay marriage

Albion · Jul 1, 2013

Archivist said:
BTW, polls have shown otherwise, and if it goes to a referendum it is considered likely that it will pass.

If and when that happens, we'll know what the people want. It was said that similar referenda in other states would pass, but they were voted down. Until there's a vote in NJ, you can't reach any conclusion on the basis of a poll.

Archivist · Jul 1, 2013

Albion said:
If and when that happens, we'll know what the people want. It was said that similar referenda in other states would pass, but they were voted down. Until there's a vote in NJ, you can't reach any conclusion on the basis of a poll.

I fully realize that a law can't be put in place on the basis of a poll. I simply said that if it goes to a referendum it is considered likely that it will pass. The polls in New Jersey now indicate that about 2/3s of the voters favor allowing gay marriage.

Your statement regarding polls in states where gay marriage was voted down would have been correct prior to November 2012 when the voters of Washington, Maine and Maryland all approved same-sex marriage.

Albion · Jul 1, 2013

Archivist said:
I fully realize that a law can't be put in place on the basis of a poll. I simply said that if it goes to a referendum it is considered likely that it will pass.

Right. And I was simply saying that polls don't matter in our system of government, so they should be kept out of the discussion when the argument turns on what the majority in a democracy are entitled to get for law ("I'm simply pointing out that the OP seems to care about the will of the majority only when it favors his position.").

Your statement regarding polls in states where gay marriage was voted down would have been correct prior to November 2012 when the voters of Washington, Maine and Maryland all approved same-sex marriage.

It's still correct. So far, voters in 32 states have turned down same-sex marriage, and 3 have approved it.

Archivist · Jul 1, 2013

Albion said:
Right. And I was simply saying that polls don't matter in our system of government, so they should be kept out of the discussion when the argument turns on what the majority in a democracy are entitled to get for law.

Legislators, governors and presidents all pay attention to the polls--why shouldn't they be a part of our discussion?

It's still correct. So far, voters in 32 states have turned down same-sex marriage, and 3 have approved it.

Yes, but in Maine voters initially rejected SSM, then reversed themselves and approved it. I suspect that we will see more of that.

Albion · Jul 1, 2013

Archivist said:
Legislators, governors and presidents all pay attention to the polls--why shouldn't they be a part of our discussion?

They do indeed have their place. What I was saying was in the context of your statement--the one I reprinted in blue--and this one: "But you have now admitted that you don't care about the will of the majority except in cases where the majority agrees with you."

Yes, but in Maine voters initially rejected SSM, then reversed themselves and approved it. I suspect that we will see more of that.

Possibly.

Jake Brake · Jul 1, 2013

McMatt said:
Totally agree. As your walk grows with god, I believe your conscience gets more influence from the holy spirit. The problem is that most churches look at the holy spirit in such a literal fashion that they believe it to be something that actually "speaks" to you. Then they put on a show of speaking in tongues, when really they are mocking the notion and really just putting random syllables together. I just personally get really fed up with a majority of "christians" giving us a bad rep by being extreme fundies and pushing that fundamentalist mentality on everyone else

see, that proves it. You and I are separate beings but have a similar conscience that is growing, evolving, into a more Christ-like mind. (a prefect loving mind is a goal)

I'm not to much concerned with the fundamentalist, for I've been around them for a long time. Most important to me is what we put into our minds. A healthy diet is best for the body as we all know, so the same must be true for the mind. Keep positive and in love with the Lord.

In other threads I read of 'fasting' and 'prayer healing'. I'm looking up some more information on safely doing it. I believe this will also purge the mind of toxic thoughts. Hateful thoughts are taxing on the body.

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