Doing away with copyright

[Ken Behrens]

It has long been a vision of mine to replace the entire copyright/CCLI/royalty system with churches writing their own songs, and simply sharing unofficially.

I actually achieved it when we were livestreaming for my online fellowship. But I have only had very limited success in normal churches.

I'd like to get your comments.

 

[Paidiske]

I think it's problematic. Fine for people who are willing to share their work freely, but for some people, creative arts in worship (including music) is something they rely on to make a living (and it's hard to make a living in it!)

If labourers deserve their food, as a general principle, is it fair to deprive them of it in this area?

 

[Catherineanne]

It has long been a vision of mine to replace the entire copyright/CCLI/royalty system with churches writing their own songs, and simply sharing unofficially.

I actually achieved it when we were livestreaming for my online fellowship. But I have only had very limited success in normal churches.

I'd like to get your comments.

I think you mean you want to stop using printed worship songs and only use those you have written yourselves, and to share them royalty free?

What if one of the songs you wrote proved to be a real winner, got recorded and sold millions worldwide? What if someone ended up making a fortune from it, and you got nothing at all. Would you still be happy with your idea?

I suspect that is why you are not getting much success with this one.

 

[Ken Behrens]

I think it's problematic. Fine for people who are willing to share their work freely, but for some people, creative arts in worship (including music) is something they rely on to make a living (and it's hard to make a living in it!)

If labourers deserve their food, as a general principle, is it fair to deprive them of it in this area?

Wouldn't it be better to give it to them based on their service generally week to week , than to make it piecemeal, based on sales?

 

[Ken Behrens]

I think you mean you want to stop using printed worship songs and only use those you have written yourselves, and to share them royalty free?

What if one of the songs you wrote proved to be a real winner, got recorded and sold millions worldwide? What if someone ended up making a fortune from it, and you got nothing at all. Would you still be happy with your idea?

I suspect that is why you are not getting much success with this one.

Actually, this is what I do (and a few hundred other composers on internet). Nobody's making any fortunes with any of these, since there are so many of them. Copyright protects you from anyone else claiming to have written it (and that is part of the law I am not in favor of doing away with), so no one else will make a fortune on my song. I do not care if I do or not. And I can always write another one, a thief cannot. And a song is a winner if it brings people closer to God, not if they buy it a lot.

Besides, God gives all His gifts for free, lots of people steal those (and make some pretty ridiculous movements out of them) and it does not seem to bother Him.

 

[Catherineanne]

Actually, this is what I do (and a few hundred other composers on internet). Nobody's making any fortunes with any of these, since there are so many of them. Copyright protects you from anyone else claiming to have written it (and that is part of the law I am not in favor of doing away with), so no one else will make a fortune on my song. I do not care if I do or not. And I can always write another one, a thief cannot. And a song is a winner if it brings people closer to God, not if they buy it a lot.

Besides, God gives all His gifts for free, lots of people steal those (and make some pretty ridiculous movements out of them) and it does not seem to bother Him.

Yes, God gives his gifts for free, but we cannot live in fresh air; that is not how it works.

I have this problem with my pictures; I have always given them away, but there comes a point when that is counter productive, particularly they cost me quite a lot in materials and time.

I am glad you are sharing your creativity online, though. That makes sense. I do as well, in a way. I don't mind anyone printing copies of my pictures to stick on their fridge, if they want to. I would mind if they printed them and then charged money for the copies, or if they tried to copyright my images.

 

[Paidiske]

Wouldn't it be better to give it to them based on their service generally week to week , than to make it piecemeal, based on sales?

Quite possibly, but only relatively large and wealthy churches can afford to pay a musician or music director on a weekly basis. Most church musicians I've known have struggled to make a living, often supplementing their worship-work with teaching just to get by.

 

[Catherineanne]

Quite possibly, but only relatively large and wealthy churches can afford to pay a musician or music director on a weekly basis. Most church musicians I've known have struggled to make a living, often supplementing their worship-work with teaching just to get by.

True. Also, those paid weekly are not paid when they are sick, or on holiday.

 

[Dave-W]

Wouldn't it be better to give it to them based on their service generally week to week ,

as what exactly? Joe sundayschool teacher comes up with a really great worship song (but is not the worship leader or even on the P&W team) and how is he to be compensated for it?

 

[Dave-W]

Copyright protects you from anyone else claiming to have written it (and that is part of the law I am not in favor of doing away with), so no one else will make a fortune on my song.

I have seen cases where that happened and the person who wrote the song had to pay the copyright claim jumper to sing/play his own song.

 

[Dave-W]

Quite possibly, but only relatively large and wealthy churches can afford to pay a musician or music director on a weekly basis. Most church musicians I've known have struggled to make a living, often supplementing their worship-work with teaching just to get by.

I was a worship leader at a congregation of just under 100 folk for a decade. I did not take a penny for doing it. I wrote much of the music we used.

I had a job as a tool and die design engineer; 55-60 hours a week. That is what kept the bread on the table and a roof over out heads.

 

[Ken Behrens]

Yes, God gives his gifts for free, but we cannot live in fresh air; that is not how it works.

I have this problem with my pictures; I have always given them away, but there comes a point when that is counter productive, particularly they cost me quite a lot in materials and time.

I am glad you are sharing your creativity online, though. That makes sense. I do as well, in a way. I don't mind anyone printing copies of my pictures to stick on their fridge, if they want to. I would mind if they printed them and then charged money for the copies, or if they tried to copyright my images.

Sounds like we do it the same way. The law protects you, copyrighted formally or not. Have you ever read the copyright law? It might surprise you how easily ownership accrues, and you can stop such illegal activities.

Oh, and I'm cheating. God takes care of me, and always has. My first 3 years in full time music ministry, He made up whatever I spent, to within a dollar or two, month by month. Of course, I'm retired now, but i still have plenty of everything. (even fresh air) I bet you will
find it so, as well.

 

[Ken Behrens]

Quite possibly, but only relatively large and wealthy churches can afford to pay a musician or music director on a weekly basis. Most church musicians I've known have struggled to make a living, often supplementing their worship-work with teaching just to get by.

As did Paul, the 12 apostles, and all the Levites. Levites had home cities with apartments and fields, if you recall.

Actually a better solution is to take that $150 you send to CCLI every year ($250 if you are livestreaming) and pay it to the music director for organizing a writing group, just like you have a choir, praise band, etc. The sheer joy of fulfillment in worship will probably add members (and money) to the church.

 

[Ken Behrens]

as what exactly? Joe sundayschool teacher comes up with a really great worship song (but is not the worship leader or even on the P&W team) and how is he to be compensated for it?

Each week, a thousand Joe Sunday School teachers write a new song. Only one makes it to CCLI, and only one in thousand of those actually earns any money worth mentioning. Not only are they not compensated, no congregation ever sings it. Maybe if the church cared enough to try it, he would develop a local reputation, meet a couple more musicians, and get asked to sing it (and a few others) at some local churches, where he would get the collection money. Plus meet some great people, and hear some mind expanding ideas about God.

Seriously, I've been in this for a long time, and I'm not joking. The CCLI way you have a maybe one in 10,000 chance of getting a few thousand dollars. This way, you have more like a one in ten chance of making a few hundred a year in donations from local churches over a lifetime.

 

[Ken Behrens]

I have seen cases where that happened and the person who wrote the song had to pay the copyright claim jumper to sing/play his own song.

Can you be specific? Someone mishandled something.

 

[Ken Behrens]

I was a worship leader at a congregation of just under 100 folk for a decade. I did not take a penny for doing it. I wrote much of the music we used.

I had a job as a tool and die design engineer; 55-60 hours a week. That is what kept the bread on the table and a roof over out heads.

Did you ever put it online?

 

[Paidiske]

Actually a better solution is to take that $150 you send to CCLI every year ($250 if you are livestreaming) and pay it to the music director for organizing a writing group, just like you have a choir, praise band, etc. The sheer joy of fulfillment in worship will probably add members (and money) to the church.

A choir and a praise band? Most churches are lucky to have somebody who can get a tune out of an organ or piano. Fine for the big churches, but most of us are in very different circumstances.

I'm not against encouraging or paying for the time and talents of local folk, but you have to have them in the first place!

 

[All4Christ]

As did Paul, the 12 apostles, and all the Levites. Levites had home cities with apartments and fields, if you recall.

Actually a better solution is to take that $150 you send to CCLI every year ($250 if you are livestreaming) and pay it to the music director for organizing a writing group, just like you have a choir, praise band, etc. The sheer joy of fulfillment in worship will probably add members (and money) to the church.

Certainly not all churches use CCLI. (Many don't even use evangelical praise songs. ) Many churches have volunteers for their choir. In my church, even the choir director offers her services for no charge, though we do try to give her some for her work. We don't have a praise band though. Our music doesn't match CCLI's style. Worship style varies greatly among different churches.

In our parish, we do have several composers in our choir. They have composed beautiful musical settings to scripture and psalms, which we integrate in our worship. They offer their services without a fee, with our choir being the group that sings their compositions. (If they decided to copyright it or sell the sheet music, we certainly would support them.). Not all have the talent of musical composition in their church. It is completely fine to use the older music. It doesn't have to be brand new to effectively worship God.

 

[Dave-W]

Did you ever put it online?

I left that place 20 years ago.
"Online" was just starting to be a thing.

But CD Baby put a recording I did of some of the originals onto youtube a few months ago.

 

[Dave-W]

Can you be specific? Someone mishandled something.

You can go thru the archives of Worship Leader mag from the late 1980s or early 90s. They documented a few cases of that.

What do you mean "mishandled?"